I?m wondering what you all think about this. Any of you that have had the chance to take a ride in one of the Vans demo planes probably noticed, or had it pointed out to you, that the Vans RV7 and 8 factory planes don?t have an artificial horizon on their panels. I have never found artificial horizons a lot of use and considered not putting one on my panel. Last summer I bought a Garmin SL30 and opted to add a glide slope to the package. This radio comes with the encoder built in and at the time it made good sense, it still does. My quandary now is this, if I?m going to the expense of including a glide slope purely as an option and my reasoning for doing that is that not only is it fun to play with but that I feel there is an increased safety margin if conditions get bad. Shouldn?t it follow that an artificial horizon is also something that should be included on my panel? I?m really interested in seeing what you all have to say.
Van's Air Force
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AH yes? AH no?
- Thread starter Rivethead
- Start date
Do you want basic IFR capability or VFR only?
I would think that if you are even considering a glideslope, you would then need to know how to "keep the blue side up". There's nothing wrong with going for a VFR only aircraft as this is a way to keep potentially large costs down. You must then accept the limitations of your aircraft is all, and simply enjoy the beauty of taking the bird out on a nice morning or afternoon.
To have a glideslope installed, I would think an artificial horizon at a minimum, even if it is incorporated into a glass display such as a Dynon.
I would think that if you are even considering a glideslope, you would then need to know how to "keep the blue side up". There's nothing wrong with going for a VFR only aircraft as this is a way to keep potentially large costs down. You must then accept the limitations of your aircraft is all, and simply enjoy the beauty of taking the bird out on a nice morning or afternoon.
To have a glideslope installed, I would think an artificial horizon at a minimum, even if it is incorporated into a glass display such as a Dynon.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
The whole thought of entering inadvertent IMC conditions without an artificial horizon.......of some kind, just bugs me. Even though not intended, it's happened out here in the mountain west area numerous times. Sudden whiteouts in day time conditions, or unnoticed clouds at night.
Just unplanned situations.
And I believe there is a particular case where a "demo" plane could have used one; even though it's been awhile since I've read the complete report.
Just unplanned situations.
And I believe there is a particular case where a "demo" plane could have used one; even though it's been awhile since I've read the complete report.
Putting in a glideslope indicator of any kind without an attitude indicator of any kind is not smart (in my opinion anyway). The GS is basically useless for IMC (intentional or inadvertent) without an AI/ADI. There are several options here, you could buy something like a Dynon or AFS or GRT unit which has both (and doesn't cost much more than buying the 2 separate units), or go TruTrak ADI & MD-200 CDI for equivalent price. Either way, you're looking at about $2500-$3500 to do it right.
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein.
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein.
hevansrv7a
Well Known Member
AHI Much More Important
If memory serves, training for the PP license included using the AHI.
During the first 60 hours I flew into IMC within a mile or two of the airport twice and I've never done it in 29 years before. The EFIS display and the GPS made this a non-event where it could have been very dangerous. Of course, I have the Instrument rating. If you don't have that (you should IMHO) don't put in ILS.
Also, I have flown in VFR conditions without a visible or useful horizon on many occasions because there are large bodies of water here near Detroit that we call lakes. When the water blends with the sky you will want basic gyros even if there is no risk of going upside down.
Endorsing L. Adamson's remarks,L.Adamson said:
If memory serves, training for the PP license included using the AHI.
During the first 60 hours I flew into IMC within a mile or two of the airport twice and I've never done it in 29 years before. The EFIS display and the GPS made this a non-event where it could have been very dangerous. Of course, I have the Instrument rating. If you don't have that (you should IMHO) don't put in ILS.
Also, I have flown in VFR conditions without a visible or useful horizon on many occasions because there are large bodies of water here near Detroit that we call lakes. When the water blends with the sky you will want basic gyros even if there is no risk of going upside down.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
It like a sail without a mast, a cart without a donkey
OK take a deep breath. You bought a SL30 which is a NAV/COM. Very nice. I think it comes standard with COM / VOR / LOC / GS. OK that is fine. It may add resale to the plane? Possible future upgrade to IFR panel and rating? OK.
You probably know this, but if you didn't also buy the remote CDI (course deviation indicator) with Glide Slope indicator, you really just have a VOR/LOC receiver. The SL30 unit shows VOR/LOC CDI (left right and radial/course) digitally on it's face, but NOT glide slope. A CDI or "NAV HEAD" with the VOR/LOC/GS display is about $1600 and 3.125" dia. Of course if you buy a EFIS (electronic gyro), many can display the Glide Slope, but you don't like attitude indicators. I'll try and convince you that you should like them.
My opinion is the GS will add ZERO safety benefit.
An attitude Indicator (AI) Gyro like a dynon at min, would have been my first choice before adding the G/S. Can't you add the G/S to the SL30 later?
I would suggest if you want to see how a ILS approach works you start on your IFR rating. Get the books, take the ground study and go fly with a CFII in a Cessna or Piper. They can show you how the Instrument Landing system works. I think you'll find two things. The Attitude Indicator is GOLD (once you know how to use it) and flying an ILS with out precise attitude (AI), power and trim is near impossible.
If you happen to dial in the proper LOC frequency for the runway you are landing on, and that runway has an active ILS you will see nothing, unless you're on the runway center line (LOC) and at a specific altitude descending at the proper rate of descent (G/S).
As all the others said, its OK to have a VFR panel, BUT FORGET THE IDEA THAT THE G/S WILL GET YOU OUT OF TROUBLE. I'd rather have an artificial horizon for "safety" than a G/S with out an artificial horizon any day.
If you go with a VFR panel I recommend you fly VFR day and not on moonless nights, unless over familiar areas with lots of ground lights.
If I did not have an AI and know how to use it, I might would not be here today based on a couple of XC trips and night flights, all started out VFR so I thought. A GS would have done nothing for me. It was the AI - attitude indicator that saved my bacon.
VFR pilots in IFR conditions pretty much = death. Some get talked down but most don't. By the way ATC can talk you down with an ASR - airport surveillance radar or PAR - Precision approach radar. Also the SL30 has a VOR and LOC receiver, which give you left and right to the runway? However its all moot if you don't know which way is up with an AI gyro. You are pretty much not going to make it.
VFR pilot and the attitude indicator?
Actually I think its a great idea, if you practice hood work with a safety pilot or CFI. It can come in handy on dark nights over sparsely populated areas, which is basically IMC. The VFR pilot continued into IMC scenario should be avoided regardless of the panel.
I cringe at airshows when a VFR rated pilot points to their panel and the lone Gyro, a turn & bank, than says, "I have that for safety just in case." If a VFR pilot flies into clouds with just a turn & bank they are in deep dodo unless they are current in partial panel (no attitude gyro) flying. IFR rated pilots often lose control in the clouds with partial panel. How is a VFR pilot going to make it?
HOW I SCARED MY SELF A LITTLE
Even as an instrument pilot, I have "surprised" my self a few times. Taking off in my old RV-4 once at a desert airport, VFR, night, little or no moon, I was shocked how little visual reference I had. YOU read about the BLACK holes but being in it speaks a 1000 words and they all start with F and S. It was disorientating even though I kind of expected it.
Never having flown out of that airport, much less at night, it was an eye opener. Total darkness is worse than flying inside white puffy clouds. With out the AI, or at least a T & B (and knowing how to use them) the situation would have been critical. As it was, I instinctual went onto the instruments, but admit I was caught off guard. In another case I had taken my heading and attitude Gyros out for work of my RV (they where trashed from doing Acro). I did a long X-C with out them. During the trip I found my self in low visibility due to rain. It was still visual conditions but missed the gyros. If I would have got into cloud I would have been screwed. I 180'ed, landed, went to the hotel and had a steak dinner and tasty beverage. You know, "rather be on the ground wishing I was flying than flying and wishing I was on the ground."
If you plan on doing X-C or night get an AI and practice with a safety pilot. When you get your flight reviews, insists the CFI give you at least 1 hour of basic attitude instrument flying, level, turns, climbs, descents, combos. IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE AND THOSE SITTING NEXT TO YOU.
With Cheap Gyros like the Dynon and good T&B indicating autopilots like the Trutrak, I think its cheap insurance. I would spend the money on a AI way before adding a G/S.
Enjoy the glide slope but please stay off the approaches. IFR planes are not expecting a VFR plane to be "experimenting" on the final approach course. In fact I taught my VFR students to KNOW where instrument approaches are and avoid them. If you must see the needles work, please coordinate with ATC and the tower before driving down the ILS or get a computer flight simulator.
Rivethead said:
OK take a deep breath. You bought a SL30 which is a NAV/COM. Very nice. I think it comes standard with COM / VOR / LOC / GS. OK that is fine. It may add resale to the plane? Possible future upgrade to IFR panel and rating? OK.
You probably know this, but if you didn't also buy the remote CDI (course deviation indicator) with Glide Slope indicator, you really just have a VOR/LOC receiver. The SL30 unit shows VOR/LOC CDI (left right and radial/course) digitally on it's face, but NOT glide slope. A CDI or "NAV HEAD" with the VOR/LOC/GS display is about $1600 and 3.125" dia. Of course if you buy a EFIS (electronic gyro), many can display the Glide Slope, but you don't like attitude indicators. I'll try and convince you that you should like them.
My opinion is the GS will add ZERO safety benefit.
An attitude Indicator (AI) Gyro like a dynon at min, would have been my first choice before adding the G/S. Can't you add the G/S to the SL30 later?
-Look a G/S will do you no good in instrument conditions without an artificial horizon because you will die.
-It will be a conversation piece but nothing more.
-Unless you can fly precisely (VFR or IMC) you will not be able to even track the ILS (Localizer and Glide slope).
-Even if you had a full IFR panel, with out training and currency in attitude instrument flying, you will likely die in IMC. The short initial training as VFR pilots plus lack of currency is a recipe for disaster.
-Play with G/S? A G/S is a very limited NAV system, it only works on final approach (front course), aligned with the runway. You also have to be at precise altitudes and rates of descent to see it or use it.
-It will be a conversation piece but nothing more.
-Unless you can fly precisely (VFR or IMC) you will not be able to even track the ILS (Localizer and Glide slope).
-Even if you had a full IFR panel, with out training and currency in attitude instrument flying, you will likely die in IMC. The short initial training as VFR pilots plus lack of currency is a recipe for disaster.
-Play with G/S? A G/S is a very limited NAV system, it only works on final approach (front course), aligned with the runway. You also have to be at precise altitudes and rates of descent to see it or use it.
I would suggest if you want to see how a ILS approach works you start on your IFR rating. Get the books, take the ground study and go fly with a CFII in a Cessna or Piper. They can show you how the Instrument Landing system works. I think you'll find two things. The Attitude Indicator is GOLD (once you know how to use it) and flying an ILS with out precise attitude (AI), power and trim is near impossible.
If you happen to dial in the proper LOC frequency for the runway you are landing on, and that runway has an active ILS you will see nothing, unless you're on the runway center line (LOC) and at a specific altitude descending at the proper rate of descent (G/S).
As all the others said, its OK to have a VFR panel, BUT FORGET THE IDEA THAT THE G/S WILL GET YOU OUT OF TROUBLE. I'd rather have an artificial horizon for "safety" than a G/S with out an artificial horizon any day.
If you go with a VFR panel I recommend you fly VFR day and not on moonless nights, unless over familiar areas with lots of ground lights.
If I did not have an AI and know how to use it, I might would not be here today based on a couple of XC trips and night flights, all started out VFR so I thought. A GS would have done nothing for me. It was the AI - attitude indicator that saved my bacon.
VFR pilots in IFR conditions pretty much = death. Some get talked down but most don't. By the way ATC can talk you down with an ASR - airport surveillance radar or PAR - Precision approach radar. Also the SL30 has a VOR and LOC receiver, which give you left and right to the runway? However its all moot if you don't know which way is up with an AI gyro. You are pretty much not going to make it.
VFR pilot and the attitude indicator?
Actually I think its a great idea, if you practice hood work with a safety pilot or CFI. It can come in handy on dark nights over sparsely populated areas, which is basically IMC. The VFR pilot continued into IMC scenario should be avoided regardless of the panel.
I cringe at airshows when a VFR rated pilot points to their panel and the lone Gyro, a turn & bank, than says, "I have that for safety just in case." If a VFR pilot flies into clouds with just a turn & bank they are in deep dodo unless they are current in partial panel (no attitude gyro) flying. IFR rated pilots often lose control in the clouds with partial panel. How is a VFR pilot going to make it?
HOW I SCARED MY SELF A LITTLE
Even as an instrument pilot, I have "surprised" my self a few times. Taking off in my old RV-4 once at a desert airport, VFR, night, little or no moon, I was shocked how little visual reference I had. YOU read about the BLACK holes but being in it speaks a 1000 words and they all start with F and S. It was disorientating even though I kind of expected it.
Never having flown out of that airport, much less at night, it was an eye opener. Total darkness is worse than flying inside white puffy clouds. With out the AI, or at least a T & B (and knowing how to use them) the situation would have been critical. As it was, I instinctual went onto the instruments, but admit I was caught off guard. In another case I had taken my heading and attitude Gyros out for work of my RV (they where trashed from doing Acro). I did a long X-C with out them. During the trip I found my self in low visibility due to rain. It was still visual conditions but missed the gyros. If I would have got into cloud I would have been screwed. I 180'ed, landed, went to the hotel and had a steak dinner and tasty beverage. You know, "rather be on the ground wishing I was flying than flying and wishing I was on the ground."
If you plan on doing X-C or night get an AI and practice with a safety pilot. When you get your flight reviews, insists the CFI give you at least 1 hour of basic attitude instrument flying, level, turns, climbs, descents, combos. IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE AND THOSE SITTING NEXT TO YOU.
With Cheap Gyros like the Dynon and good T&B indicating autopilots like the Trutrak, I think its cheap insurance. I would spend the money on a AI way before adding a G/S.
Enjoy the glide slope but please stay off the approaches. IFR planes are not expecting a VFR plane to be "experimenting" on the final approach course. In fact I taught my VFR students to KNOW where instrument approaches are and avoid them. If you must see the needles work, please coordinate with ATC and the tower before driving down the ILS or get a computer flight simulator.
Last edited:
kentb
Well Known Member
George, I'll go you one better....
My opinion is the GS will add ZERO safety benefit. [\quote]
If a pilot is VFR and playing with the LOC/GS on approach without a safety pilot to watch for traffic, the heads down time making sure that the plane was on the LOC/GS would be a safety issue.
Kent
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Yep see and be seen
Good point. Most mid airs happen, day VFR near NAV aids and airports. I know of several midair accidents that involved at least one plane practicing instrument approaches.kentb said:My opinion is the GS will add ZERO safety benefit. [\quote]
If a pilot is VFR and playing with the LOC/GS on approach without a safety pilot to watch for traffic, the heads down time making sure that the plane was on the LOC/GS would be a safety issue.
captainron
Well Known Member
Huh???
I'm wondering why there's even a question here! The AI is a stand-alone instrument that will save your bacon when you wander into a situation where you have no outside references. Just put it in the panel and hook it to the vacuum system, or wire it up if you're going all-electric. Glide slope? Nav radio with glide slope reciever, GS indicator, Nav and GS antennas, coax runs, wiring, etc...
I think the AI should be a first priority.
I'm wondering why there's even a question here! The AI is a stand-alone instrument that will save your bacon when you wander into a situation where you have no outside references. Just put it in the panel and hook it to the vacuum system, or wire it up if you're going all-electric. Glide slope? Nav radio with glide slope reciever, GS indicator, Nav and GS antennas, coax runs, wiring, etc...
I think the AI should be a first priority.
