What to Do for Basic IFR Panel?

OK, this will surely generate some conflicting suggestions, but that's what these forums are for, right? Here goes.....

My -6 is set up for day/night VFR and also has vacuum DG and AI, and electric turn coordinator. When building it, I considered that at some point I might want to have IFR capability. Now, after flying 2+ years and dealing with the all-too-frequent Pacific Northwest weather (low stratus, fog, drizzle.....) I am considering getting my instrument rating. Putting aside the issue of whether to get the rating in the -6 as opposed to a rental Spamcan, my main question is: what is the most economical, yet useful/practical, way to complete the panel in the -6 to make it a useable IFR machine? My expected IFR use (assuming I am able to accurately predict that at this stage, which may or may not be the case) would be mainly to get in and out of the airport and get through the low stratus layer, probably with not much in the way of hard IFR en route or many approaches to mimimums (mimima?).

Right now I have a Garmin 396 on a RAM mount, a single ICOM A200, and a KT76A transponder. I left room in the panel for a conventional CDI, and I have some extra space in the radio stack for a panel mount Comm/GPS, Comm/VOR, etc., though not enough to fit a Garmin 430 or the like without some significant surgery.

So, would adding an IFR GPS alone be adequate? Is an approach-certified IFR GPS worth the bucks, as opposed to an en route only version? Is VOR completely dead/obsolete for en route and approach work?

I am already familiar with the recommendations for a single axis autopilot, or better, for any significant IFR work. My primary question is what navigation equipment to go with, and - to the extent possible - feedback on whether I am being realistic in what I think my IFR needs and useage would be, given where I live.

Only one point of many

Experts may correct me, but I believe that you cannot rely upon even a TSO'd GPS let alone a handheld to make it IFR legal. The exception is the very latest and most expensive panel mount Garmins including the one they bought from UPSAT. The key word is "primary" in the reg's. For primary, you need to have at least a TSO'd VOR installed as per standards. Once you have the VOR (preferable with LOC and GS) you can be made "legal" with the addition of sensitive altimeter, Mode C transponder.

The controversial part is whether you can or should use a handheld in addition to the VOR.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2003/oct/ifr_gps.html

Is that practical and safe? I'm stopping now so others can get in on this.

From Chapter 1 of AIM..(emphasis added)

Well the first question is easy

Yes you can do your training in your 6 and Lee Schuester is the DE that gave me my checkride in the 7a, he has also given a CR in a 6.

As for instruments I built my panel up around a GNS 430 with an ICOM A200 for the second radio.

I really think you need two radios because for any approach you need at least 3 freq's pre loaded as there is no time to fiddle with knobs to load freqs as you'll be behind the airplane before you know it.

Just my humble opinion having just graduated so to speak.

Frank

Good post. I am pondering a basic IFR panel on my Rebel for exactly the same reason, and wondering what is the minimum an inspector will sign off. It sounds like the nav question has been answered. My big question now is about the flight instruments. Rutus, you are already set up in that regard, but I was considering using an EFIS for all flight instruments, and wondering what I HAVE to add to that to get an IFR airplane. I think a T and B is required, anything else?
Thanks.

I am pondering a basic IFR panel on my Rebel for exactly the same reason, and wondering what is the minimum an inspector will sign off.

Click to expand...

The DAR won't "sign off" on your panel, regardless of what is in it. It is your airworthiness certificate that will allow you to operate under IFR provided the plane is properly equipped for the intended flight (primarily FAR 91.205).

That is the legal aspect of your inquiry. The practical aspect will depend on how many instruments and backups you need in order to feel you can conduct IFR ops is a safe and prudent manner.

As a data point

I have a Dynon D100, steam guage ASI and alt, Pictorial Pilot (provides Turn and bank). Gns430, 106 head, Icom A200 push button transponder, PS 600 Audio panel which has the marker beacons.

I feel comfortable with this setu.

Frank

Thanks guys,
Excuse my ignorance...So I just apply for a VFR/IFR day/night outer space/inner space cert and it's up to me to comply with part 91? The DAR isn't going to say anything about my panel?
Jesse

coastalflyer said:

Thanks guys,
Excuse my ignorance...So I just apply for a VFR/IFR day/night outer space/inner space cert and it's up to me to comply with part 91? The DAR isn't going to say anything about my panel?
Jesse

Click to expand...

Correct - your limitations will be for "VFR flight....unless equipped as per Part 91 blah, blah, blah...." which, at first sounds like a limitation, but once understood, means you can do just about anything!

But....please stay out of my orbital way!!

Paul

Super cool,
Ready for blast off....You gotta love experimental!
Jesse
ps. Does TCAS work in space?

Part 91

Paul is right, read FAR 91.319, then read it again. Just don't do anything that makes the frendly Fed read 91.13 to you. <G>

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

How do I get "authorized", then?

John Clark said:

Paul is right, read FAR 91.319, then read it again. Just don't do anything that makes the frendly Fed read 91.13 to you. <G>

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Click to expand...

91.319(d)
"Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
...
"(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; "

take a few lessons and do some approaches

Rutus said:

My primary question is what navigation equipment to go with, and - to the extent possible - feedback on whether I am being realistic in what I think my IFR needs and useage would be, given where I live.

Click to expand...

You might consider taking a few instrument lessons (Yes, grit your teeth and fly that spamcan ) to actually do the approaches you have in mind. I started my instument ticket a few months ago for a couple of reasons. The main reason was to be confident making the right choices for the RV panel design that is in my near future. The other reasons are the standard ones for obtaining the ticket. I can assure you that the lessons have changed both me and my panel/cockpit design.

Rent a spamcan????

I had to pick myself up off the floor..

Actually this is not a bad idea for the reasons you suggest. I can say however that my particular instrument choice is no different now than when I started.

The one upgrade I would consider is maybe a second Nav/com instead of just a com to suppliment the GNS 430.

Then again that is a significant upgrade for the type of IFR I intend to do (I.e bust thru a few layers every now and then)

Frank 7a

91.319(d)
"Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
...
"(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; "

Click to expand...

The question was raised as to how to be "authorized by the Administrator".

Your airworthiness certificate is your authorization since it is administered by the, ah, Administrator who is authorized to administer your certificate.....isn't beauracracy wonderful??

I think I'd just add a SL30 nav/com with indicator and then you have ILS/VOR approach capability and a second com. Why bother with an ifr gps if all you want is to get up through the crud to vfr on top.


The ILS is your best bet any way if you need to get down through the crud at some point as WAAS isn't everywhere yet and ILS is.

Just figure this is the best bang for the buck way for you to get IFR into the panel as far as nav and approaches go.


I plan on a VERY extensive panel but will probably add to it in stages as the full bang was over 34k when I estimated it. If I go in stages I'll start with a ILS/VOR nav/com and add the IFR GPS later as $ permits.


And one final question for you is what approaches are available at YOUR airport as this might help you decide.

The Dilemma....

OK, this is a a very good question, and points out the dilemma for all prospective instrument pilots trying to outfit their first panel on a budget. The problem is that the "skinnier" your budget - and therefore, your panel - the harder the flying is going to be, and unfortunately, that means that your safety margins are going to be slimmer.

Now I don't want to come across as a "if you can't afford to play with the big boys, then you're not allowed to play" kind of guy. I learned and earned my instrument ticket in a worn out Grumman Yankee with a single VOR and a flaky ADF. And boy, was it a challenge! Compare that to a modern airplane with a moving map IFR GPS - it is almost impossible to get confused as to where you are, and where you are going.

Certainly, any good instrument pilot needs to be able to operate when the fancy stuff quits - I am a strong advocate for having back-ups, and staying current with flying those backups - but when you think about equipping an airplane to learn instruments on a budget, step back a few paces and make sure that economizing is really a good thing. If you're talking a few thousand dollars difference between minimal equipment and a more robust navigation system, maybe you should just delay the process a few months to earn the extra money.

Once again, I am not saying that you should stay out of the clouds if you can't afford the "good stuff" - I am saying that it is far safer to fly with a moving map than it is with discrete instruments - getting your attitude from one dial, heading from another, and VOR/LOC/GS from another. Great training, makes you able to fly anything later on. But safer for a rookie? Not really...hence, the dilemma!

I can actually argue either side of this debate pretty well, but given a choice of going bare bones or spending a bit more for some better situational awareness...I'd say you'd be safer with a good GPS and some sort of moving map. And then, I'd make sure that your instructor turns it off frequently during training, forcing you to use the VOR and a map in your head!

Paul

I have flown my -6 under various IFR conditions ranging from breaking thru an overcast layer to a couple hours of hard IMC. In addition to the equipment required by the FAR, it has a KX155 Nav/Com with glide slope, a KI209 CDI with glide slope, a TKM MX12 comm, a PS Engineering audio panel and a Lowrance 2000C handheld GPS. I consider this to be the minimum I would want to fly IFR with. I wouldn't want to be without ILS capability. The second radio allows you to call and then monitor an advisory frequency while staying on with ATC or, contact a FSS and still hear ATC. And it is of course a safety consideration should the #1 comm fail. The audio panel is a must to be able to utilize two radios to their fullest. The handheld, while not legal for IFR navigation, is great for improving situational awareness, providing a DME reference, or in an emergancy if your primary means of navigation (VOR) fails. The truth is, I regularly do practice approaches with the GPS and it is always more accurate than the VOR. I tried IFR with one radio and it was a pain in the butt. The next thing for me will be an auto pilot just because my -6 can get to be a handfull after a while in hard IMC.

Ironflight said:

OK, this is a a very good question, and points out the dilemma for all prospective instrument pilots trying to outfit their first panel on a budget. The problem is that the "skinnier" your budget - and therefore, your panel - the harder the flying is going to be, and unfortunately, that means that your safety margins are going to be slimmer.

Now I don't want to come across as a "if you can't afford to play with the big boys, then you're not allowed to play" kind of guy. I learned and earned my instrument ticket in a worn out Grumman Yankee with a single VOR and a flaky ADF. And boy, was it a challenge! Compare that to a modern airplane with a moving map IFR GPS - it is almost impossible to get confused as to where you are, and where you are going.

Certainly, any good instrument pilot needs to be able to operate when the fancy stuff quits - I am a strong advocate for having back-ups, and staying current with flying those backups - but when you think about equipping an airplane to learn instruments on a budget, step back a few paces and make sure that economizing is really a good thing. If you're talking a few thousand dollars difference between minimal equipment and a more robust navigation system, maybe you should just delay the process a few months to earn the extra money.

Once again, I am not saying that you should stay out of the clouds if you can't afford the "good stuff" - I am saying that it is far safer to fly with a moving map than it is with discrete instruments - getting your attitude from one dial, heading from another, and VOR/LOC/GS from another. Great training, makes you able to fly anything later on. But safer for a rookie? Not really...hence, the dilemma!

I can actually argue either side of this debate pretty well, but given a choice of going bare bones or spending a bit more for some better situational awareness...I'd say you'd be safer with a good GPS and some sort of moving map. And then, I'd make sure that your instructor turns it off frequently during training, forcing you to use the VOR and a map in your head!

Paul

Click to expand...

Hey Paul, so what do you think of him having the 396?? Just for the sake of argument: I know it's not "legal" for IFR but we're talking survival when it hits the fan in which case the FAA says the pilot is allowed any infraction to bring it down safely. I for one would feel perfectly fine circling down through the clouds over an airport using a handheld GPS should the Nav/com **** out and I can't shoot an approach (of course I'd fly to VFR if that was an option). So realisticly the 396 IS a good backup IMHO to a single nav/com for light IFR (no low IFR, extended x-c in the clag etc).

Thoughts??

Lots of Opinions!

Thanks all for the various suggestions and opinions. The struggle, in my mind, always ends up being whether I need to go "whole hog" and really add some serious $$ and work to the panel - i.e., you can't go "half way" on this - at which point I vacillate and start to think that for the number of trips per year in question, maybe I should not bother and leave things as they are. Would still be worth getting my IFR ticket for the usual reasons (proficiency, etc.) but at that point, I'm gonna want the capability in the RV to use it, right????

Maybe I just need to find a wealthy mistress.....

JW

My opinion is that you CAN go "half way". That's why I wanted to know what the legality is. As someone already stated, check out the panels on the average spam can trainers, not the brand new ones that look like an airliner (actually better than what I fly at work), but the older ones that most of us learned on. It's very basic stuff, and the addition of any kind of GPS "backup" is a huge leap in situational awareness. If you know the limitations of your system, and your own skills, I think you can and should get an instrument rating, and use your airplane for "soft" IFR like you describe. That's exactly what I plan to do, and at the minimum expense. In fact, flying ANY airplane IFR requires that you know what it can and can't handle. They all have a limit. With our light singles, it is especially important not to fly into icing conditions, thunderstorms, etc, but you think about these things no matter what you're strapped into.
Jesse

As an aside to my original question about the minimum flight instruments; It seems that every picture of an (experimental) EFIS panel I see also has round gauge backups for most if not all of the primary instruments. My question is why have the EFIS? This may sound like a dumb question, but again, how many (small) single engine GA production airplanes have dual instruments? I understand that there is a chance of the EFIS taking a dump, so you put in the supposedly more reliable steam gauges. Doesn't that make it seem silly to have bought the $2,000.-$10,000. EFIS in the first place?
Again, with a mostly VFR/occasional light IFR panel, would it be totally crazy to use, say a Dynon D180 flight deck for all primary flight and engine instruments? It seems to me that the chances of the screen going blank during that 15 minutes you're IMC are surely no greater than your single, non redundant engine going quiet. OK, maybe it does make me a bit nervous because after all, you can glide down if you can keep the wings level, so I put in a 2" airspeed, altimeter, and, I don't know, maybe a TrueTrak, or a venturi T and B.
That's about $6,000. Would it not be cheaper to leave the Dynon in the store and just go with all round gauges from the beginning, and no redundancy (accept the T and B) like 90% of the spam cans?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Thanks.
Jesse

Ps. I know the EFIS can give you several nice features not available from steam gauges like GS, TAS, wind vector etc, but most of that is available on A GPS that I WILL have. That also brings up the point that the GPS provides usuable redundancy for speed, altitude, vertical speed, and heading.

Here's What's Taking Shape...

My goal is a IFR panel that allows you to comfortably file and fly IFR and have a workable but not overkill backup. Here's how it's taking shape:

AFS 3400/3500 Combo EFIS/EMS (possibly dual screen)
2.25" steam gauge backup ASI/ALT and electric turn-and-bank
G430W as primary GPS/Nav/Comm
SL30 as secondary Nav/Comm
G106 CDI with switch for G430 / SL30
G396 in AirGizmos mount as WX receiver / MFD / back-up GPS
TruTrak Digiflight IIGVS
PS7000 Intercom/MB Rx
Garmix XPDR - model undecided

This gives me:
* Two Comms
* Two VORs
* MB Rx
* One IFR GPS and one VFR GPS
* Conventional backup instruments (no GPS required)
* Secondary CDI
* MFD for WX and terrain

I'm in the midst of performing a fault tree / HAZOP analysis on this system to find the weaknesses. Finally, a work skill that is useful in flying!

Doug,
That sounds like a very cool panel, but I would not consider it "economy IFR". That must be over 20 Grand right?
I am looking to spend less than half that.
Jesse

Rutus said:

Thanks all for the various suggestions and opinions. The struggle, in my mind, always ends up being whether I need to go "whole hog" and really add some serious $$ and work to the panel - i.e., you can't go "half way" on this - at which point I vacillate and start to think that for the number of trips per year in question, maybe I should not bother and leave things as they are. Would still be worth getting my IFR ticket for the usual reasons (proficiency, etc.) but at that point, I'm gonna want the capability in the RV to use it, right????

Maybe I just need to find a wealthy mistress.....

JW

Click to expand...

You could buy a good used Tso'ed GPS on e-bay or somewhere else. I would rather have a few more good used instruments than a couple of brand new instruments. You really have to look closely to see which ones are new and which ones are used.

ILS first

I think your plan for flying through the overcast in otherwise good weather is completely workable at a relatively reasonable cost. I think you have gotten some really good advice from a couple of guys in this thread.

I personally want ILS capability in an IFR bird. Basic ILS capability is what I plan to install in my 6 under construction. I may or may not install an IFR approved GPS, budget permitting.

Get a good nav com with ILS and GS capability. That gives you 2 coms. My suggestions are the SL30 or KX155 as they are both reliable and solid units. Get an audio panel with marker beacon. A refurb KMA24 will work great and is pretty cheap. Note that you will not need to update a GPS database to be legal.

As previously stated by others, your handheld will go a long way toward safety and situational awareness, even though not legal for IFR.

As far as an autopilot, nice to have, but if/when you can afford it is fine. I've done IFR approaches in a 7 that is not autopilot equipped, and I did not notice that I had any more problems than in a non autopilot equipped Cessna. A 6 might be a bit more sensitive in pitch, but I still think it would be fine. It will keep you busy, but if you are proficient, it will be workable. You will need to be diligent about cockpit arrangement before the flight as you don't want to need to fumble around for any maps when flying solo IFR.

Without a IFR GPS, you will not have legal direct routing capability in the soup, but you will still get where you want to go. This will give you plenty of capability for Northwest weather.

I would install the gear first and use the 6 to get the rating. That way, when you are doing this for real, you will be very proficient in what you will be flying. IFR or VFR an RV leaves me dissappointed with just about anything else that I can afford to fly.

Cheers,
Dale Lambert
RV-6 finishing kit.

Direct Routing sans TSO'd GPS IS Legal

whifof100ll said:

............
As previously stated by others, your handheld will go a long way toward safety and situational awareness, even though not legal for IFR.

......................

Without a IFR GPS, you will not have legal direct routing capability in the soup, but you will still get where you want to go. This will give you plenty of capability for Northwest weather.

.........

Cheers,
Dale Lambert
RV-6 finishing kit.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify what may be a disagreement, the use of the handheld GPS during IFR operations is legal for situational awareness (but not for primary navigation) as shown in the AIM above. Also, since it is possible and legal - especially in a radar environment - to fly a heading and cross check position with even one VOR, it is therefore legal to fly direct without having a TSO'd GPS. In fact, you will find that ATC will sometimes encourage this if they know (from the remarks on your flight plan) that you have the VFR GPS on board by asking "N123 what would your heading be..." and when you tell them, they will often clear you direct. There is some very good advice above and I don't mean to negate any of it except for this little point.

coastalflyer said:

Doug,
That sounds like a very cool panel, but I would not consider it "economy IFR". That must be over 20 Grand right?
I am looking to spend less than half that.
Jesse

Click to expand...

Economy IFR might be:
* Vacuum AH, DG
* Electric T&B
* Used SL30 or King 155 nav/com
* Garmin 300XL IFR GPS/com (used or factory reman)
* Used CDI
* PS 6000 intercom with MB Rx
* Used King or Garmin XPDR

You could do that for about $10k. You have dual com and dual NAV / approach sources. The downsides are:
* No VNAV GPS approaches
* No moving map (300XL doesn't really count)
* No WX link
* Reliability (lack of?) with vacuum pump and gyros
* No autopilot

Yes, I can legally fly IFR without goodies like a moving map or autopilot. However, given that I use both of these as a VFR pilot when in Class B, I can't see enjoying IFR without them. IFR, like aerobatics, increases risk. If my vacuum pump goes out in the soup, I'm likely not going to be smiling, thinking about all the money I saved by not going with a more reliable system; it's more likely to be a lot of 4 letter words that are not appropriate for VAF or TV.

That said, plenty of people fly IFR with a single nav/com every day. If you're comfortable with it, do it. A good single nav/com (SL30) and a used handheld GPS might be just the ticket. Throw in a handheld com with an installed antenna for safety.

Thanks Doug and everyone for the great advice. I agree that ILS capability is far more important than having an "IFR" GPS if it is a choice between one or the other. As for having a GPS that you can do all the fancy VNAV approaches and stuff with, I fly for a regional airline, and we don't even have that capability (actually we do but the feds won't let us use it). As stated, an ILS will get you home more often than any other type of approach. That is what I do 90% of the time, and I shoot a LOT of approaches, and not just to big airports.
Again, thanks for the specific equipment recommendations and advice. You guys are great. It makes me wish I was building a Vans. If he was selling a bush plane I would be, for sure.
Jesse

Hmmm.....

I'm thinking that probably the best solution for me would be to add a used NAV/COM and CDI with glideslope, which would give me 2 comms, 1 VOR, and ILS capability. I already have an ICOM A24 handheld for backup NAV/COM, and could plumb a connection for a remote antenna for that. The 296 could be my "situational awareness verification" device, and I imagine it would be a huge help in that regard. If I shopped for some used gear I would think this could be done for a fairly modest price and still give me a reasonable balance between cost, utility, and safety.

These airplanes are never really "finished", are they?

As far as EMERGENCY use (therefore anything you do is legal as far as FAA goes) of handheld GPS's in IFR emergencies:

AI/ASI failure:

Could give enough attitude info as long as not turbulent and not too hard to keep plane flying in gentle turns/climbs/decents?? May be hard in 3/4/6/7/8 RV's as so agile??

Nav failure
To get to VFR below if no way to reach VFR from on top:

- circle over lake, airport, known low topography until breaking out

- follow interstate on moving map

Any other idea's?? Thoughts??

grantcarruthers said:

As far as EMERGENCY use (therefore anything you do is legal as far as FAA goes) of handheld GPS's in IFR emergencies:

Click to expand...

I like the idea of a panel mounted G396/496 for a lot of reasons:
* Cheap WX downlink (compare to Avidyne or Garmin TSOed systems!)
* Internal battery backup
* Highly accurate NAV
* Good source of heading (track) and passable source of airspeed (mostly to identify changes) and altitude

Most handheld GPS are plenty accurate for enroute and terminal applications. Not sure how they would do for approach, but they are normally very accurate. The biggest thing that they lack is any kind of integrity monitoring. However, the accuracy is certainly there to be used as a backup source of guidance.

A Minor Concern: 496 Panel Page Interpretation

the_other_dougreeves said:

I like the idea of a panel mounted G396/496 for a lot of reasons:
* Cheap WX downlink (compare to Avidyne or Garmin TSOed systems!)
* Internal battery backup
* Highly accurate NAV
* Good source of heading (track) and passable source of airspeed (mostly to identify changes) and altitude

Most handheld GPS are plenty accurate for enroute and terminal applications. Not sure how they would do for approach, but they are normally very accurate. The biggest thing that they lack is any kind of integrity monitoring. However, the accuracy is certainly there to be used as a backup source of guidance.

Click to expand...

Dear "other",
I completely agree with almost everything you say. I too am a big fan of the 296-396-496, especially the 496. BUT groundspeed is not airspeed. If I lose my EFIS and have no other airspeed indicator then I have a problem. Changes in GS, IMHO, are not adequate because wind changes so readily. My last-ditch airspeed backup is my Lift Reserve Indicator, which is very good in the approach and landing phase but useless in cruise for airspeed information. Ultimately I think I will add something that will tell me manuvering speed, flap speed.

It's nice to see so many folks chiming in with realistic, practical viewpoints about the 496. I'm still hurting from the last discussion on the use of handhelds during IFR operations; this feels better.

Great Minds Think Alike

The Other Doug Reeves:

My planned panel for my RV-10 is almost identical to yours. I don't plan on the G106 since the AFS 3400/3500 has that capability. Am I right to assume that you are using it for redundancy to the AFS 3400/3500?

Also I am thinking of sticking to a SL-40 Comm connected to my 396 as a second comm. If budget allows (not likely) I will switch to a SL-30.

Joe Hutchison
RV-10 Tailcone
AH-64D Instructor Pilot

More Antennae, etc.???

In mulling all this over the last several days, I've been thinking of adding a Nav/Com with ILS and then I would be set for IFR work at reasonable cost and hassle. I've been aware of the need for a VOR antenna, but am now thinking that there will also have to be antennae for marker beacon and glideslope, too? And an audio panel, right, since I'll have 2 comms and need to be able to hear the VOR identifier, too???

Am I missing something or does adding VOR and ILS really create a ripple effect of stuff needed? And what are others using for marker beacon and/or GS antenna? Hopefully something relatively cheap, and not too hard to retrofit.

If only the Pac NW had lots of VMC year-round, but it just ain't so....

John

attackpilot said:

The Other Doug Reeves:

My planned panel for my RV-10 is almost identical to yours. I don't plan on the G106 since the AFS 3400/3500 has that capability. Am I right to assume that you are using it for redundancy to the AFS 3400/3500?

Also I am thinking of sticking to a SL-40 Comm connected to my 396 as a second comm. If budget allows (not likely) I will switch to a SL-30.

Joe Hutchison
RV-10 Tailcone
AH-64D Instructor Pilot

Click to expand...

Right on the CDI - it's a redundant display for the AFS, and is certainly not necessary with the SL30 as the 2nd radio - it can display the CDI but not GS on the internal display. The AFS just looks too crowded to me with flight data, engine data and nav data all on screen at once - it'd be nice to have a CDI to use, but certainly not required.

The more I think about it, a SL40+G396 makes more sense than a similarly priced SL30 - just a lot more capability. What you do loose with that is a second IFR capable box - the G430W has both VOR/ILS/GPS, but if you loose the entire box (it happens), you have no IFR Nav left.

Reason to get the SL-30

the_other_dougreeves said:

...
The more I think about it, a SL40+G396 makes more sense than a similarly priced SL30 - just a lot more capability. What you do loose with that is a second IFR capable box - the G430W has both VOR/ILS/GPS, but if you loose the entire box (it happens), you have no IFR Nav left.

Click to expand...

Before I get to the SL-30, just a note that you can live without the marker beacon, just add 50' to the ILS minimum in most cases.

One reason to get the SL-30 over the -40 is to be able to receive the HIWAS on the VOR frequencies. I don't think the -40 can do it. That said, they both get the weather-only frequencies.

From AOPA site http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/ii_9811.html (emphasis added)

• HIWAS (Hazardous inflight weather advisory service). HIWAS is a continuous broadcast of inflight weather advisories, carried over selected VOR frequencies. You simply tune in a VOR with HIWAS (identified by a small, solid square within the VOR?s frequency identification box), select your VOR?s identification mode, turn up the receiver volume, and listen in.

Convective sigmets, sigmets, center weather advisories, severe weather forecast alerts, airmets, and urgent pireps are all broadcast on HIWAS. As soon as one of the above statements is issued and/or updated and recorded, it?s immediately broadcast on HIWAS. Then it starts to run, over and over. This makes it easy to copy information, because if you didn?t get the message the first time around it will soon be repeated.

HIWAS broadcasts may be dated, so pay attention to the time they were recorded.

Keep this firmly in mind: In areas where HIWAS is commisioned, air route traffic control centers (ARTCC), tower facilities, and flight service stations will not broadcast inflight weather advisories. They?ll simply mention over their frequencies that an advisory has been published, and ask you to tune in to HIWAS for details.

"One reason to get the SL-30 over the -40 is to be able to receive the HIWAS on the VOR frequencies. I don't think the -40 can do it. That said, they both get the weather-only frequencies."

You should be able to get it from the nearest FSS though no? Or ask the center guy nicely if you're that worried about it.
I agree with your comment about marker beacons. A fair number of ILS approaches don't use them anyway. Adding 50' is no big deal in any case, and if you really need to get home...you will! I don't think I would add extra expense or antennas just for that. In a practical sense, any type of GPS (handheld or whatever) will give you much more situational awareness than that anyway; Being able to see how far you are from the FAF is much better than knowing when you passed it. DME can do that for you too, and some discussion on that would be great, but again it's not available on all ILS approaches while a GPS backup is.
I had to shoot an ILS the other day in a basic IFR Cherokee with no DME and no GPS backup, and from the right seat looking across to the left I might add. I am familiar with the approach, so it wasn't too bad, but I realized how much I depend on a mileage readout to the FAF for my situational awareness. When I got handed off to the tower, I didn't know what to tell him for my position, and just after I had made a guess based on altitude, I crossed the outer marker beacon. Dialing in a crossing radial for position was not really an option due to the workload at that time. My point is that having a GPS, set up with the points along the final approach track gives you a huge warm fuzzy.
In case anyone is wondering why I wasn't in the proper seat; the guy in the left seat was not instrument rated, the airport socked in, and we just needed to get home.

VAL Avionics INS-422

Don't overlook this little guy:

http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/detail/5127/Avionics/VAL_Avionics/INS-422/

2k for VOR, Localizer, Glide Slope, and Marker Beacon.

Rutus said:

In mulling all this over the last several days, I've been thinking of adding a Nav/Com with ILS and then I would be set for IFR work at reasonable cost and hassle. I've been aware of the need for a VOR antenna, but am now thinking that there will also have to be antennae for marker beacon and glideslope, too? And an audio panel, right, since I'll have 2 comms and need to be able to hear the VOR identifier, too???

Am I missing something or does adding VOR and ILS really create a ripple effect of stuff needed? And what are others using for marker beacon and/or GS antenna? Hopefully something relatively cheap, and not too hard to retrofit.

If only the Pac NW had lots of VMC year-round, but it just ain't so....

John

Click to expand...

Rutus:

You can use the same antenna for VOR and GS. Some radios need a signal splitter in the antenna run to feed 2 inputs to the NAV. Others such as the SL-30, have an internal splitter so you feed in just 1 run from your VOR antenna.

As stated, you don't need the MB to fly but if you have it, you might as well plumb it. The MB will likely be in the audio panel but need not be. PSE advertises multiple audio panels with and without MB. I seem to recall that they will make one without a MB if your desired model is only advertised with the MB. I may be wrong on this.

I might not characterize the addition of VOR as creating a ripple effect but more like the incremental effect. Deciding between a minimal day, VFR vs. a full blown IFR panel is easy. It is 1 capability or the other and $5K vs. who-knows-how-much. But once you decide to add a capability, it's easier to justify the next $500 and then the next. Said differently, deciding about a $25,000 issue is more straight-forward than keeping costs in control when dealing with the incremental cost creep that can come if you're not careful.

Jekyll

rv8ch said:

Don't overlook this little guy:

http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/detail/5127/Avionics/VAL_Avionics/INS-422/

2k for VOR, Localizer, Glide Slope, and Marker Beacon.

Click to expand...

Thanks - I'd totally forgotten about that. If you really wanted to go low budget IFR, that would be a good choice. The Narco 122D is also a good, albeit more expensive option - it will function as an external CDI as well.

I'll throw in my $.02. I've been flying my RV-6A for ten years. It started VFR and was upgraded to an IFR panel five years ago. I routinely fly it IFR. For an economical, and reliable panel, consider:

1. SL-30 single nav/com. The SL-30 has the ability to monitor both standby frequencies. You can listen to ATIS on the standby com and display the radial to the standby nav. This is basically the functionality of a dual nav/com installation, but without the redundancy. The SL-30 has proven to be a very reliable unit in the field. Backup the com with a handheld. Use ALKALINE batteries in the handheld, and change them every three years, or after an hour of use. A handheld with dead rechargeable batteries is a paper weight. Rechargeable batteries do not hold their charge as well as alkaline. A single nav/com does away with the expense, weight, panel space, drag, etc of the audio panel, second radio, second set of antennas, additional electrical requirements, etc.

2. Vacuum horizon, steam A/S, Altimeter and VSI. Use a combo wing leveler and T/C for the turn coordinator. A Navaid autopilot is inexpensive. Instead of a DG, use a Dynon D-10A in HSI mode. When coupled to the SL-30 you will not need the additional nav head. You can switch the data input to the Dynon from either a handheld GPS, or the SL-30. The Dynon will also serve as a backup to the attitude indicator if either the vacuum, or attitude indicator fails. The internal battery backup for the Dynon is a good idea. Cheap and light. The Dynon will be the encoder for the transponder.

3. Autopilot. IMHO, a must have for an IFR RV. Try holding +/- 200? when getting a reroute in the soup without it. A wing leveler, as mentioned above, plus an Altrack works well. If the autopilot breaks your budget, you can add these later on with little trouble. Mine were retrofits.

4. Handheld Garmin 396. This gives you weather, a moving map, etc. I plug my clearance into a 296 and that drives the Dynon HSI and autopilot for enroute operations. The flight in then monitored with the nav side of the SL-30. I routinely get ?direct to? clearances once I?m out of high density airspace. If the SL-30 fails, I?d have no concerns with using the handheld GPS to shoot an overlay of a VOR, or LOC approach. These approaches are in the 296/396 database. Another nice feature is the 296/396 will autotune the SL-30 frequencies. Very handy.

5. Garmin 327 transponder.

6. Engine instrumentation as required. This decision should not play into the VFR / IFR debate.

7. An IFR GPS is nice, but besides the additional initial expense, you also have the annual expense / hassle of updates. Let the database expire (28 days) and you have an expensive VFR GPS. A single ($35) annual update to the handheld is all you need.

Obviously, this is just one of many, many options. I have the above mentioned setup, plus a few additional items (Mid-Continent nav head, marker beacon receiver, RMI Micro Encoder, Alpine stereo and PS-Engineering stereo intercom). It has proven to be reliable and provides a level of redundancy that I?m comfortable with.