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Taildragger landings

rv8r

Active Member
Well, I know, this post is a little dumb, but anyway: What would you tell an rather unexperienced pilot with very little taildragger experience to look for to make a safe landing in his brand-new RV4? Anybody has to learn for himself, but there are some no-no's for sure (landing speed, two- or threewheel landings and so on). Just the old problem, build too much, flown too little. Any suggestions??
 
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Transition training, or if it's tough to find in Germany, more tailwheel time with an instructor. If you needed to, you could get a flight from Germany to the US , roundtrip, for about $600...depending where you flew to, anyhow. It would be worth it, I think, to spend $1500 for flight/hotel/training and go home with confidence if you can't find anything locally.

As usual, just my $.02
 
rv8r said:
Well, I know, this post is a little dumb, but anyway: What would you tell an rather unexperienced pilot with very little taildragger experience to look for to make a save landing in his brand-new RV4? Anybody has to learn for himselve, but there are some no-no's for shure (landing speed, two- or threewheel landings and so on). Just the old problem, build too much, flown too little. Any suggestions??
Hi Dirk,
I faced the same dilemma when I first flew my RV-4. Just got my tailwheel endorsement in a Champ and had no time in RVs. Heres a couple of thoughts. Not a CFI or anything so take it for what its worth.

Before you go for your first flight, set in the cockpit and find the spot on the canopy that intersects with the horizon and put a small piece of tape on it. This way when you come in for a landing, you can line up the tape with the horizon to make sure you have the same 3 point attitude for landing.

When you go for your first flight, and you are circling the runway, you dont have to land the first time you try. You can do your approach then do a go-around and try again just to get your pattern work down. Then when you feel comfortable with the pattern work, you can do the landing.
 
See if you can get some time in a Citabria. That's a fairly easy taildragger to find for rent and a fairly close match for approach speeds. My first airplane was an Aeronca Champ and I put close to 900 hours on that airplane. I STILL think my RV-4 is easier to land than that Champ was. I took the transition training from Mike Seager and that was very valuable too as far as getting use to approach speeds and learning to slow the RV down. As for the actual landing and rollout, very easy. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
Time with an instructor would be really, really helpful. Maybe you can find an old WWII pilot who can help? Or maybe someone else in Europe who reads this list can help you out?

Regardless, get to a grass strip. Much better to land a taildragger on grass than on pavement. If you don't land quite straight, on grass the wheels will slip sideways a little, but on pavement they will grab & start you into a groundloop much more quickly.

Without any time with an instructor, I would suggest you practice taxiing at high speeds, maybe slowlly working up to 35 or 40 knots so you can get practice controlling the aircraft close to landing speeds. Not good for a new engine, I know.

In the air, get to know your stall speed really well and the feel of the plane at slow speeds well before you try your first landing.

Rather than watching the horizon straight ahead, I was taught to watch 2 or 3 aircraft lengths ahead and off to the side a little. I have found that I can better judge my rate of descent that way and if I do forget and look straight ahead, my landings are not as good.

Get a copy of either The Compleat Taildragger Pilot or Taming the Taildragger from Aviation Book Co. http://www.aviationbook.com/searchResults.tpl

Neither will be a perfect reference for an RV-4, but you probably won't find a perfect one. The The Compleat Taildragger Pilot is strong on theory. Taming the Taildragger is oriented toward older aircraft.

Again, try to get some taildragger time with an instructor.

Good luck!

Dick Scott
RV9A Wings
1941 Interstate Cadet
 
Hallo Dirk,

We have about the same situation, so I took up practising circuits in a Piper Cub with an experienced instructor under all situations and in all kinds of weather. My friend Pim has flown in a RV-6 and says it is way easier than a Cub so I hope to have enough experience when the big moment comes. Anyhow: the first flights, and probably my transition training, will be by a very experienced tailwheel veteran who used to land on the only aircraft carrier the Netherlands ever had ;)
If you are close enough to the border I have some tips on training for you in the Netherlands (eg on EHLE), in the mean time check out http://www.tailwheel.nl/ for inspiration and advise.

Hals- und Beinbruch!
 
Understand and commit to the two basic landing types

Full Stall Landings and Wheel Landings:

One of the easiest ways to screw up a landing is to not clearly plan for one or the other and then end up with something in the middle. I have about 1500 tailwheel landings and generally don't mess them up anymore but on the rare occasion when I do I can almost always trace it to being "in the middle".

A full stall landing ends with the stick all the way back and the airplane nose attitude quite high. The airspeed is slow.

Advantages: 1) shorter landings
2) fairly easy to learn
3) good for night landings
4) better for landings on rougher turf runways

A wheel landing ends with the stick centered or even just a bit forward of center. The tail remains in the air until the speed begins to bleed off. The airspeed on approach is faster than that used for a full stall landing.

Advantages: 1) some people like them better in windy conditions
2) they look good
3) once you get the idea they are not particularly hard

If you land in the wheel landing attitude (and speed) and then pull the stick back (as you would in a full stall landing) you will guarantee a bounce. Similarly, if you try to do a full stall landing but use the higher airspeed appropriate for a wheel landing you will float a long way.

If you do get a big bounce on landing, just add a little power, keep the airplane level and allow it to settle back onto the runway (assuming you have good runway remaining). The little bit of power makes a world of difference between getting a nice easy cushion and crunching back to the ground after the bounce. 1200RPMs for a second or two is plenty.

The time to be extra vigilant is when the airplane is slowing down after landing. As the tail surfaces become less effective due to less airspeed you are more susceptible to a ground loop. Keep your feet off the brakes but be ready to use them if needed.

BTW, I personally do wheel landings about 90% of the time.

Bruce
N297NW (RV-8)
 
Dirk,

As a pilot with just under 1000 hours, (inexperienced compared to most on here) I will share my preference. I have logged 847 tailwheel landings, in 21 different aircraft. I would say that 825+ of them, have been wheel landings. (the rest were just to see if I could still DO full stall landings.) I have 33 landings in an RV4, and 30 of them were wheel landings. Why? Because: Better vis. over the nose, more stability, and most importantly, because of the increased effectiveness of the tail. Just make sure, that as Bruce said, that you do EITHER a wheel landing, OR a full stall landing. an RV4 is NOT a good aircraft to get 'caught in between'. Practice, and figure out the exact speed that makes for a smooth wheel landing. Nail the speed, nail the landing. (MY .02$)

Bottom line, in the Taylorcraft I had, the little wheel rarely touched the ground above 20 mph. If I got enough runway, it is a wheel landing every time...


Best of Luck!

Gregg
 
The above is a good article that Eric lists. I just finished reading it.

About all I can add is that if the RV-4 has the OLD shorter landing gear and you have a 72" constant speed prop, be VERY careful with the wheel landings as there is not a lot of prop tip and runway clearance.
 
Find a place with a taildragger and an instructor...

In Europe you should have no problem finding Zlin 526F or Wilga 104 with a good instructor. Don't experiment you can end up paying for life.

The smart thing is to know your limitation and obtain needed training.

Where in Germany are you?
 
If there is no hurry I might be able to help you out with some training.
I'm a CFI and will have my RV-4 moved to Europe after Sun and Fun. Will go to Luneburg to visit some relatives now and then and that is fairly close to you.

Apart from that: Never ever fly a tailwheeler without proper hands on training. There should be other RV-4's in Germany as well where you could get some training.
 
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easy but different

An RV4 is a very different airplane than a Citabria or Champ. You MUST learn how to fly it. Once that's done, I agree that it is an "easier" taildragger than a Citabria or Cub. Unfortunately, it's the "in the meantime" that has gotten people in trouble. I would strongly recommend an instructor who can give him some RV time. If necessary, coming to the US is a lot less hassle than doing major repairs on a brand new airplane.

Good luck and hope your friend has a long a safe career flying his airplane.

John
 
It probably would cost more to replace gear legs and or repair some wing damage than getting some check out time regardless of inconvenience or cost. Just a thought. Larry
 
High speed taxiing

I do not recommend high speed taxiing. Slow is ok, but when you get ready to fly, put the throttle to full, and takeoff. When landing, you should be at idle power for the most part. That will remove one variable, (Power) and you can deal with slowly decreasing airspeed, and no torque.

During high speed taxiing, you adjust to the torque, and the increased airflow over the tail, then you pull the power to idle, and the torque suddenly goes away, and the effectiveness of the rudder suddenly changes, and if you are not experienced, the fun really begins!

Many a new homebuilt was lost before the first flight taxiing at high speed.

The good news is that the RV-4 is the most gently taildragger I have ever flown. You are just going to love it!

Have fun and fly safe.
 
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Citabria Time is Not RV-4 Time

After purchasing my -4, it was suggested by many that due to my 85 recent hours in a Citabria, I should just "hop in and go do it". After all, the -4 is one of the easiest taildraggers to land. Well, it is . . . once you're comfortable landing it. Smarter heads recommended Michael Seager in Oregon. I'm glad I went with specific type training (my insurance company is too).

The two primary differences between landing Citabria type aircraft and RVs are:

1. Speeds (not simply landing speed);

2. Sight picture (things look, therefore feel, different).

All of us with some hours under our belts know that good landings begin as we enter the pattern. Pull the power in a fixed-pitch Citabria, slow happens. Pull the power in a -4 with the same set-up, it's like braking on ice. Now, you're behind the plane and a good landing will be more luck than skill. Throw a Cessna or two into the mix and now you've got a party.

Maintaining correct speeds thoughout the entire landing sequence in a -4 is the key. Citabrias are more forgiving of mismanaged airspeed on final. Get lazy, distracted and slow in the -4, you'll soon learn why it's called terra firma.

And, like surgery, when landing higher performance airplanes, the best way to learn is not by mistake, but through training.

By the way, I will admit that once I was trainind and comfortable in the -4, it is the easiest tailtragger I've landed - three point or wheel.

Good luck.

Steve
 
sr71steve said:
The two primary differences between landing Citabria type aircraft and RVs are:

1. Speeds (not simply landing speed);

2. Sight picture (things look, therefore feel, different).
I only have 5 hours in the 7ECA and have only a few rides in the -6 and -4, but I have to agree on the sight picture - in the Citabria, I think you sit higher above the cowling.
 
sr71steve said:
After purchasing my -4, it was suggested by many that due to my 85 recent hours in a Citabria, I should just "hop in and go do it". After all, the -4 is one of the easiest taildraggers to land. Well, it is . . . once you're comfortable landing it. Smarter heads recommended Michael Seager in Oregon. I'm glad I went with specific type training (my insurance company is too).

The two primary differences between landing Citabria type aircraft and RVs are:

1. Speeds (not simply landing speed);

2. Sight picture (things look, therefore feel, different).

All of us with some hours under our belts know that good landings begin as we enter the pattern. Pull the power in a fixed-pitch Citabria, slow happens. Pull the power in a -4 with the same set-up, it's like braking on ice. Now, you're behind the plane and a good landing will be more luck than skill. Throw a Cessna or two into the mix and now you've got a party.

Maintaining correct speeds thoughout the entire landing sequence in a -4 is the key. Citabrias are more forgiving of mismanaged airspeed on final. Get lazy, distracted and slow in the -4, you'll soon learn why it's called terra firma.

And, like surgery, when landing higher performance airplanes, the best way to learn is not by mistake, but through training.

By the way, I will admit that once I was trainind and comfortable in the -4, it is the easiest tailtragger I've landed - three point or wheel.

Good luck.

Steve

Totally agree. With over 700 hours tail wheel in tandem machines like my L3 and Bucker Jungman, I was very pleased that I spent an hour and half in Van's RV7 with Mike Seager. It is more than just landing: slow flight, learning to slow down properly, stalls, and other airwork are important. Mike also boiled down the pattern and landing in a very simple stepped approach. The only difficulty I had was getting used to sitting off of center as most of my time has been in tandem aircraft, not a problem in the 4. The responsiveness of the elevator also took a bit of getting used to.
I did not want to step into my brand new 6 for its first flight and be worrying about my ability to fly the airplane. I will have enough other things on my mind.
 
Danny King is probably right about the high speed taxiing and I shouldn't have suggested it. But somehow, you need to get an idea of how the thing is going to handle at higher than normal taxi speeds. You need to get an appreciation of the importance of keeping the plane straight and how you need to get on the rudder pedal right now to straighten it out if/when it starts to swerve.

The best thing by far, as others have suggested, would be to get some taildragger time with an experienced instructor, especially in an RV.

I see in the RV White pages there are 3 listings for RV-4's in Germany and 3 in Great Britain, 2-8's in Germany, 3 in France. Some may not be finished, but some are listed as flying. Maybe you can get some help there.

Dick Scott
RV-9A Wings
1941 Interstate Cadet
 
Just curious for you guy's opinion on this situation:

How would somebody with 60+ hours nosewheel RV time AND 350+ taildragger hours (Citabria, 140, 170, Tcraft) do in a taildragger RV? Would additional training be needed?
 
sr71steve said:
Maintaining correct speeds thoughout the entire landing sequence in a -4 is the key. Citabrias are more forgiving of mismanaged airspeed on final. Get lazy, distracted and slow in the -4, you'll soon learn why it's called terra firma.

Hi Steve
Would you share you numbers for landing you RV4. I come down final @ 70kts over the numbers @ 65kts and when I touch down in 3 point I have a small bounce. I haven't tried to wheel land yet. What speed do you wheel at and do you use full flaps?
 
Additional training is always needed when transitioning to a new aircraft. The only question is weather or not you want an instructor sitting next to your during the training or if you're gonna train yourself solo :D
 
How would somebody with 60+ hours nosewheel RV time AND 350+ taildragger hours (Citabria, 140, 170, Tcraft) do in a taildragger RV? Would additional training be needed?[/QUOTE]

Craig,
Sounds like you should have no trouble with the RV unless you have not had any recent TW time. Then you might want to get a little refresher training. After about 15 hours TW instruction I jumped in my RV9 and had no trouble. The only thing to bear in mind is the springiness of the landing gear and being able to arrest the sink before touchdown. Also, being able to react appropriately to a bounced landing is important.
IMHO taildraggers are fun, fun,fun!
 
Speeds and Stuff

Dayton,

First you need to know that I'm no expert. However, I'll tell you what I do based on Mike Seager's training. It works for me. Second, regardless of how well we follow procedure, hops, jumps and wiggles happen when three-pointing taildraggers (with me as the pilot anyway):

1. On the forty-five entry, 1500 RPM and AS down to 110/120 MPH. This is critical as it is hard to slow AS down once on down wind;

2. Abeam the desired touchdown point on downwind, power to idle, AS 100 MPH, flaps to half, AS 85 MPH, power back to 1100 RPM (hold 85 MPH);

3. Turn base, hold speed at 85 MPH, flaps down full, power at 1100 RPM, retrim;

4. Turn final, 1200 RPM, maintain 85 MPH, flaps full;

5. Over the numbers, 85 MPH, power to idle, begin level off, touch down.

That's it. Notice the AS does not change once the desired 85 MPH is acheived. Mike Seager teaches this method and I see zero reason to tinker with it. Of course, x-wind landings need less flap and more attention, but in general, I never deviate on Seager's approach. Now for a fly in the ointment.

I prefer to wheel land my -4. Same method as above, but when mains kiss the pavement, I add a smidge of forward stick and I'm home.

One thing I did not mention, but should, is that the approach in a -4 is much steeper than in a C172 or similar. Flat approaches in a -4 are a no-no in Seager's book. After my short time in the -4, I can see why. And, this brings us back around to the main point. Don't just "go out and do it" because you have hours in other taildraggers. These planes, while gentile once you know them, are different than what you're used to. Get trained.

Hope this helps.

Steve
 
My 6000+ hour tailwheel time opinion is that if you do a wheel landing, your landing too fast. I have always landed 3 point and a lot of times when heavy I touch the tail first. As soon as I touch the ground I immediatly dump the flaps(this guarantees the plane is done flying).

A lot of my flying is from very narrow unimproved roads(I mean runways) and a long drawn out transition is not the best thing. In a perfect world you should be at stall speed when you touch down.

This method works great for me, but I'm sure someone will chime in with why it not a good idea and would like to here why.

Buz
 
buz said:
My 6000+ hour tailwheel time opinion is that if you do a wheel landing, your landing too fast. I have always landed 3 point and a lot of times when heavy I touch the tail first....
Well this happens to be my opinion also, but there are sure a lot of different ones. I don't see the reason to land faster than necessary, except maybe to support the tire companies.

FWIW I live in an area of high winds, but the only time I do a wheel landing is to demonstrate it or see if I can still do it.
 
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The last two posts sound like what my tailwheel instructor drilled into me while doing the endorsement. We only did wheelies so I knew how and because they were required. I agree 100% that touching down in a full stall with the plane done flying and the tailwheel planted firmly so that it can steer makes the most sense, both in words and (for me) in practice. There are lots of variables with the wheel landing, especially during the transition from tail up to tail down. I have no doubt that they are effective and useful for many, I just find that the 3 pointer is more useful for me.

But, wheel landings do look cool! :D

Thomas
 
First solo

:D Hi together, here is a report of my first solo in my newly completed RV4.

D-EEES first flew on March 04th this year with Rolf Hankers, an experienced professional testpilot (RV4-builder as well) at the controls with no problems at all. 5 days later my buddy Georg, flight instructor and Tempco Swift /Yak experienced took the ship up and became familiar with it very soon. So there had been 2 pilots in that RV, but the poor builder still on the ground?.

I build the RV during a 4.5 year period and 4059 hours, started in August 2002 with no flying licence and no aircraft background. As you might guess, there were a lot of things to learn building it, as well as there was a bunch to do to get my licence at the local airstrip. In May 2004 I earned my motorglider licence, while at home the empennage and wings had been done. September the same year I extended the licence to a full PPL.

With all that done, I was eager to complete the RV asap and put flying to the backburner. All in all I arrived with a completed RV4, 45 hours of flighttime and no taildragger experience at all except the old motorglider I learned with 3 years ago, last stick-time in August 2006. So quiet obvious not a very comfortable cushion to do my first solo. I had a plan in my mind how to get prepared, something like: First fly something, step up to a PA18, get some practice with another taildragger, go to an airport with at least 3000 ft runway and so on, but things changed?

11th of March: I was hanging around at the hangar and suddenly an RV9 came in, he read about the first flight at vansairforce.net and wanted to say hello. I talked him over to pick me up and let me feel out the handling of the 9, because I thought it would be quiet similar to my -4. As a benefit, Georg took the -4 and we made some air-to-air pics. Wow, big improvement, the poor builder flies side by side with his holy cow :eek:)

We have March and the weather?s amazingly good for this time of the year, only 3-5 knots wind straight on the runway and the forecast told us that it will stay that way all week long. I?m a little too heavy to jump into the rear seat of my RV, but Georg would be a passenger well within the envelope, so he suggested to sit behind me and ?talk me down?. Yes, memories came up from bad movies??but the RV ran well, weather was perfect, the instructor was courageous (crazy??) and I KNEW that I learn best the hard way, so I took a deep breath and jumped in. Sun was going down and the wind disappeared, peaceful silence everywhere, time to change that and fire up the engine.

Taxi was no problem, I read about taildraggers a lot, was prepared to give right rudder and had a clear picture of what will happen, pushed the power lever slowly forward and?..****, what?s up, too much input on the rudder, correct, overreacted, poor Georg with no rudder an no throttle behind me, corrected again, wow, very sensitive, tailwheel still on the ground, another correction, runway halfmarker passing by, all of sudden the preacher-like voice of Georg : ?Just a little forward stick, let the tail come up and take it away at 60 KTS, I have control, you have the rudder?.

Said, done, airborne!

OK, that was a big surprise, no comparison to the old motorglider, the rudder inputs of the RV are just 1/10 to the inputs the motorglider asked for, lesson learned. We climbed out and when I took a short look to the airspeed indicator we where going 120 KTS and up, up, up. Impressive! Time to feel out the controls: Aileron very light, and extension of your thoughts like the promotion DVD told me a 1000 times, elevator stiff, trim sensitive, time to slow down and lower the flaps. 70 KTS, 1200 revs, first notch, and the rivetbanger had not enough power to pull it up to second notch, asked for help from behind, second notch. Lesson learned: slow down to 65 KTS, engine to idle, no problems with pulling flaps to 40 degrees. As soon as the engine turns more than idle there is too much pressure to get the flaps out. No problem if you know that, but?.

OK, now the hardest part: Landing. Meanwhile the sun was down to the horizon and we decided to come in 09 instead of 27 because you hardly where able to see something against the sun. Pattern was no problem, I had the numbers from Georg?s flights and added a little extra margin for the passenger, over the numbers with 65 KTS, only the toes on the pedals to avoid breaking, flare, flare, and that thing flew forever, eating up the runway, settled down a bit to hard, bounces up again, down, OK, now KEEP IT STRAIGHT, hey, STRAIGHT I said, ****, left, right, and all of sudden I slipped off the right pedal, ****. Voice from behind: Go around, full power, accelerate, more, don?t take it up, build up speed, more, gooood, now up and away?..puh, another try?.OK, feet up into the pedals, that will never ever happen again! We touched down on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday the next time, snaking down the runway, but we made it home. That night I was barely able to get some sleep, I was sure that I will never be able to manage that beast???

As I knew from my former flying lessons it?s best to go on as soon as possible to avoid the feeling of fear that can easily build up when you are sitting at home, thinking about what went wrong too long, so we arranged another lesson the next day. Monday, no one at the airport, no visitors, friends and so on. We made 5 landings and they came out better each time. Georg showed me how to stop bouncing when he pushed the stick forward just a little ?on impact? to keep the tail up, let the speed bleed off and settle down gently. I tried it by myself and had the picture with the third landing. That evening I was shure that I will be able to do that on my own in summer. I had a much better night.

2 days ago we had another lesson, made three landings (not a single good one, but takeoff and landing was straight with a little bouncing at touchdown). Georg told me to make a power off landing out of 2000 ft to get a feeling of what to do if something goes wrong. I came in with that RV glider, touched down and we both decided that I can do it on my own. 10 landings with my instructor behind me, that was MUCH faster than I ever expected, but I was trusting that airplane a kind of a childish way that I never felt for any aircraft before. I spend so many hours with every part of it, it MUST KNOW that it?s me at the controls and it will be kind. Weather was, blue sky, wind straight in with 10 KTS, no gusts, so this is the day.

I pulled the stick back, opened the throttle, pushed the stick at little forward after 100 ft, let the tail come up, had no problems to keep it straight, even had time to look at the airspeed indicator and took off. MAN, THAT THING CLIMBED OUT. I tried to climb out shallow, but nevertheless it was more ballooning than flying and I flew solo the first time, sitting on MY wings, looking out of MY canopy, touching the levers I build, staring at the panel I designed and was feeling like Leonardo Di Caprio in the movie ?Titanic?, standing at the ships nose with open arms and yelling out ?I?m the king of the world!?.

These are rare days in life, which you will remember forever. All those people along the way, friends by now, came to my mind, all the countless hours in the shop, mostly fun hours, all those bureaucrats that couldn?t prevent this to happen, all in all a feeling of deep satisfaction.

Landing was a little thrilling as ever, the by now familiar bounce that I have to work on said hello, but I came to a stop without brakes with a lot of runway (OK, 2500 ft overall length, plenty for an RV, but just OK for the rookie..). A big hug for Georg, a biiiiig grin that will need some plastic surgery to remove and a big day in life.

I will attach the picture of my first landing, it looks so beautiful, you would not expect a soaking wet guy at the controls? ;)





d-eees final.jpg
 
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Congratulations, and thank you...

Wow! Dirk, what a story. Thank you so much for sharing it. I can only imagine how it felt. Congratulations on coming such a long way. You reminded me of a quote by Calvin Coolidge...

"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

Good luck with your flying!

P.S. You just have to get the picture framed to hang on your wall...
 
Like you guys said, everybody has an opinion. Here's mine. If I crossed the threshold at 85, I would hit the train at the other end of the runway. I come across the numbers at 70-75mph, then dump the flaps immediately on touchdown. 85 is 1.5 stall speed. Van says that you can land the -6 in 500' at gross weight. I promise that you cannot do this by crossing the numbers at 85.
 
Couldn't have said it Better

What a beautiful story about your learning to fly D-EEES. Mine was a very similar experience as yours was (fear, excitement,....plenty of sweat!) and six months later I'm still learning, still gaining confidence and still as proud as anyone can be of my little RV-4. AND, your picture is better than any of the 50 or so I took, so I have "adopted" it and placed it on my desktop!
Thanks again for a great story.
Ron
N8ZD
RV-4 180 hours
 
I confess..

Alright, I admit it. It's on my desktop too :). Great stuff. Great story. Now enjoy the flying.....

John
 
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