Is it me or my Rivet Gun??

OK, the wife and I started working on the first "practice project". Every thing was great until we tried to use a flush swivel set to and bucking bar to set some AD3's. You've got to realize that neither of us have done this before...

I have a new Sioux 2X gun and I'm running it at 90psi. I am questioning if the trigger response is correct? If I go "full blast" and then back off it hammers slowly. But then a few seconds later I can pull the trigger to the "slow" position and all I get is the sound of air escaping. Pulling the trigger further just results in more air sound but no hits. At some point it finally goes (hard to tell when) and hammers at full speed (typically hard to control). Is this right? Should I just be hitting it full blast everytime?

Probably because of the above, my wife was finding it near impossible to keep the bucking bar on the shop head during the burst. The results, of course, were not good.

Any tips?

Thanks!
Mike

Working properly, the trigger should start out slow and speed up as you go pull it in. Sounds like yours is sticking... is it lubed properly? I would first try squirting a bunch of oil into the air fitting and running the gun for 10 or so seconds (with a set in place and pressing it aghnist a wood table, never pull the trigger without the set pressing on something.) It that doesnt fix it, the gun is not working right.

...oh, and the pressure sounds way too much. My 3x gun only needs about 40 psi and a 1/2 to 1 second burst to set a -3 rivet. a 2x will need more pressure, but just play with it untill you get a good shop head with a 1 to 1.5 second burst.

Lower the Pressure...

Way back when I started my project, working alone and playing around with practice rivets, I also started out with too much pressure. I really started getting good results when I was down to around 35 psi for -3 rivets.

Paul

I second the 35 psi. I use that for -3 rivets. I set the regulator for 35 with the trigger pulled on the Avery 2X rivet gun.
for -4, I use ~45. You will find that the thickness of the material will cause the pressure need to increase, and the rivet set that you are actually using.
When I used a 12" offset to back rivet the wing skins, I think we actually used 60-65 psi.

At 90 psi, I am surprised that the swivel head did not pop off. (Don't ask me how I know this).

Take it easy at first

I agree with all who say to turn down the air pressure. I used 35 PSI for the -3 rivets and 50 PSI for the -4 rivets. One little trick I used to steady the bucking bar was to hold the bucking bar against the rivet at the same time I rested a finger or my hand/arm agaist the metal (if it was possible). Very few slippages happened with this method. Be careful not to get your fingers trapped as to injure it. Start the gun slowly and quicken the BPM's (Blows per minute) as you feel more comfortable with the gun/bucking bar combo. With practise, you will catch very quickly.

Good Luck
Peter
RV-9A Flying

Lower the pressure with a air regulator to somewhere around 35 psi for AN426AD3- rivets. That should fix all your problems. Dan Checkoway has a useful chart for the pressures that work 'for him' for various rivets at http://rvproject.com/rivets.html. Mind you, these are for a 3x gun, so YMMV. Personally, I played around with the pressure until the time I normally pull the trigger for gave me a good rivet. Start with low pressure (30 psi) and work yourself up slowly until you find your sweet spot.

Good Luck!

I have trouble trying to time a burst to 1/2 a second or 1 second. I learned another technique from an expert mechanic which will help as you build experience:

Use very short bursts. At first just hit the trigger and let off immediately, pause and do it again. I coordinate with the bucker and we agree that I will give 3 bursts, then we'll check the rivet, so the bucker knows to keep the bar in place until the 3rd burst has finished. On -3 rivets, about 1/3 of the rivets will need one more quick burst. This technique has a couple advantages, especially for beginners. Both the riveter and bucker can stay on the rivet more easily. If the bucker has a problem, the brief pause gives a chance to call "stop!", which gets you stopped sooner than with a longer burst. And for me, 3 very quick bursts give me more consistent results than a longer burst.

As someone else said, holding the bar with your hand also against the part does help keep the bar in place. Do the same with the rivet set to keep the gun from drifting.

Lower pressure is right. And with 90 PSI and a lightweight bar, you can dent the metal. I learned that on my practice project.

I use the heaviest bar I can fit in the location. The tungsten bars are probably really nice in some tight locations and for general usage, but there are places where you need a bigger bar just to reach where you need to buck and you'll find you need a variety of bars.

Mike:

Sounds like the rivet gun is not working properly; try the oil & run for a few minutes on a board trick -- it that does not clear it up contact your supplier & get a replacement (if it's for me I'll send another one out). The gun should tap lightly when the trigger is first pulled, then progressively hit harder the more the trigger is pulled. If it hisses air, something inside is hanging up.

Do try lower pressures as others have suggested.

For your wife, get some cotton garden gloves for her to wear while holding the bucking bar -- helps cushion the hands & save the nails. Also, when you get the gun working let her try running the gun while you buck. Reverse roles a few times so you both get the hang of what is happening on each side of the work -- you may find she can do the gun easier than the bar (keep the gloves on for the gun, too) & hearing protectors are a must (for both of you).

Bob Avery

Placement of the regulator

Just checking - If the regulator is placed at the compressor end of the hose (wrong) the initial burst will be high no matter what the reg is set for.

Make sure the reg is AT THE GUN.

MikeJ 7A said:

(snip)neither of us have done this before...

I have a new Sioux 2X gun and I'm running it at 90psi.(snip)

pull the trigger to the "slow" position and all I get is the sound of air escaping. (snip)

Is this right? (snip)

Any tips?

Thanks!
Mike

Click to expand...

Hi Mike.

What everyone is saying about pressure is right. I'll toss in a couple of things that helped me starting out...

As others have said, use some oil every time you use the gun (air tool oil, some use Marvel Mystery Oil). Just a few drops when you hook up the gun.

It sounds like your gun is tight (new) and I bet the trigger will smooth out quickly as it breaks in. If it doesn't it needs to be worked on.

Practice "feathering" the trigger with the set on a block of soft wood (I keep lots of 4-5" cut-off pieces of pine 2x4s around for this. Don't trigger the gun unless the set is against something fairly solid though. I run at least a few hits into the wood every time I use the gun to make sure the pressure is where I want it. If I haven't used it in a while, it might be a little sticky and I'll run some long (20-30 second) bursts to loosen it up and get the lube spread around inside.

When you hold the gun, don't hold it like a pistol. It will be easier to control if you "choke up" a little and keep the center of your palm more in line with the set. Use your middle or ring finger rather than your index finger on the trigger

Search on this number at AircraftSpruce.com.

12-01545

This is a little "regulator" that you put in your gun which allows you to set the pressure on the gun side. It's really just a variable oriface, but it allows you to set pressure so you can set the full trigger pull to less flow than original. For me it goes Gun -> swivel -> Regulator -> hose -> compressor. I have a Jiffy 2x that I run 90PSI with this little baby turned way down to restrict flow untill the gun barely works. For setting #4's, I turn the 'regulator' up four clicks, and it sets #4's without a problem.

It was both...

Thanks for all the great informative replies!

After heavy oiling and running the gun for several minutes to break it in, it seems much more consistent. It still "sticks" every so often when I barely pull the trigger but a small tap gets it going again.
I also discovered a small screw on the trigger that I can use to control the max hit rate. That and my small inline regulator seems to have it under control now.

We plan to do a lot more practice rivets tonight and hopes are high.

MikeJ

PS, I have the avery back rivet set. How the heck do you get the retaining spring on over this thing. Do I need to pull the pin and remove the nylon ring??

MikeJ 7A said:

PS, I have the avery back rivet set. How the heck do you get the retaining spring on over this thing. Do I need to pull the pin and remove the nylon ring??

Click to expand...

You need to buy a retaining spring that slides on from the side. Dont you have one for your flush swivle????

Nope

G-force said:

You need to buy a retaining spring that slides on from the side. Dont you have one for your flush swivle????

Click to expand...

My Avery flush swivel had a behive spring attached. But it was too small for the shaft of my 2X Sioux. The 2x Sioux came with a larger beehive spring which I am using on my flush swivel. I just saw the side spring on the avery site, I guess I need one of those as well. (Didn't know there was such a thing.)

Thanks

Mike,

I had to get a slightly larger quick-change retaining spring for my Sioux 2X. Avery carries them, their part number/SKU is 2600.

FWIW, I have both a Sioux 2X and and Avery 3X gun. My Sioux gun actually seems to hit a little harder than the Avery 3X, so we've been using 25-30 PSI with ~1.5 second burst when doing fuel tanks - works great!

Good luck,

Dave

When I began my project, I swore that if I screwed-up, it would be because of my lack of skills and NOT my lack of tools. Well I had the correct tool (CP pneumatic squeezer), but it was sticking. While dimpling a spar, I put an undocumented hole in the spar (aka screw-up).

Moral, don't use broken tools, especially power/pneumatic tools. If it's new, send it back. If it's used, you can see if the problem resolves itself, but my advice would be to get it working before you use it on the plane.

Best of luck,

Mike,

You are doing everything right. You should not accept a rivet gun that sticks or requires you to tap it to make it work. We have had a lot of problems with the Sioux rivet guns so we no longer recommend them to our RV tool kit customers. I would send the rivet gun back and get a more economical gun that works properly. Also, we recommend the 3X although some builders like the 2X because it is smaller. The 2X hits faster than the 3X. New builders may find that the 3X which has less blows per minute is easier to control. When you start pulling the trigger the rivet gun should begin to lightly tap the rivet. Get a correctly operating rivet gun, continue to do practice rivets and you will master the technique quickly.

Good Luck,
Glenna Isham
RV-8A in process