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How much steam can you get with $6K?

maniago

maniago

Well Known Member
I got two kids in college and I'd love to keep fooling myself that I deserve that deluxe dual Skyview IFR panel and GNS650, but it aint gonna happen. $24K is not in the cards. Infact I'm pretty much outta schlitz. That said, I trained like most on steam and steam failures so I'm not totally put out.

So how much of a reasonably descent MTBF steam panel can I get for 6K? And where can I cut corners with off the shelf used and should I not cut and get rebuilt? Can I get an autopilot, or should I save my pennies for a GPS. I don't think both are $ feasible.

I'm potentially within a year of first flight, but too far away from 2020 to wait for whatever the ADSB mandate will be then and then equip. I know I'm in for an upgrade, but kids will be outta college by 2018 and so I'll have cash to work with by 2020. I need a cost effective flyable 3yr solution on a budget - VFR probably, cause I don't see how I can do it IFR.

Any ideas?
 
Forget the steam.... you should build a panel that you can grow with, so how about a Garmin G5 for primary air data instrument, Aera 660 to navigate, EI MVP 50 (great eng monitor) for $2500 (I know where there is a used one for sale), add a used GTX327 transponder for about a grand and you're ready to go with a pretty decent VFR panel.

Total cost approx 6K and the good part is you can use all or most of it later as you update the things :D

Edit: Forgot about the com, GTR200 is really hard to beat for $1200 so that would bring the total closer to 7K
 
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I would agree with the above. By keeping an eye out for used equipment it is certainly possible to come in under $6k. As an example, here is my equipment and what it cost:

GRT Sport SX 8" - New - $2800
GRT EIS 4000 - Used - $500
GTX 327 - Used - $1000
GTR-200 - New - $1200
Dynon D10 backup EFIS - Used - $500

Total - $6000

Alternatively you could base your panel around something like the GRT Mini, and supplement it with steam gauges. This would give you attitude information without the need for vacuum system. You could also incorporate a tablet into the panel for super-cheap mapping and weather data with a Stratux.

It's easy to get caught up seeing all the $25-40k panels on here, but it certainly isn't remotely necessary to spend that way for a very functional VFR panel. In fact, I could add a NAV receiver and be IFR capable, full autopilot, and ADS-B/In/Out and still be under $10k total.

Chris
 
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I did that drill over and over again. I never could get the total cost of a panel with steam gauges to come out much better than a modest EFIS setup. You can pick up a slightly older EFIS like a D180 for a lot less than a new dual Skyview Touch. All your flight instruments, AOA, autopilot, engine monitoring, it's a pretty nice little box.

Single point of failure? Sure. If you're flying VFR a tablet or GPS on battery power will give you navigation, and a backup ASI & altimeter is pretty cheap if you're really worried about it. Now you're OK even if you have a total electrical failure.

D-180, used COMM, used transponder, used GPS, a couple of servos... you might even be able to put in backup ASI & ALT and have money left over.
 
Used Gyros, vacuum systems, and pitot/static gauges seem to be plentiful as people are upgrading. Heck I have a set in the hangar that I'll post one of these days.

I recently did an upgrade to put in ADS-B, GRT Sport, audio panel and radio, but I kept the primary round flight instruments (altimeter, A/S indicator, T&B. They are just plain easier to fly with than their jittery digital versions and if I lose the TV I'm still legal.

My recommendation is to a: keep the wiring behind the panel accessible for your future upgrade, and use removable panels so you can do the swap out with a minimum of fuss and maximum of ease.

Do what it takes to get the airplane flying. The digital maps are great, and ADS-B traffic is wonderful, but on the whole they are a lot less fun than the flying. Don't trade the latter for the former.

John Allen
RV6A
 
I know it pushes the budget a bit, but:

SkyView SE with AHRS, EMS (with probes), 2020 ready transponder, and com radio is $7,500.

With this setup, you can add an AP for $1,500, get 2020 ADS-B compliant for $500, AoA for $200, or upgrade to full SkyView, instead of needing to spend a lot more on those things in the future.

--Ian @ Dynon
 
Did I forget to mention that I just dont like tapes?

Does noone have a good word to put in for steam?
 
7adi.png
 
Ok Ian, I know SE can project steam gauges. I can do that. But Can an SE be upgraded to full skyview software at a later date? If so, I might just get out the organ grinder and tap shoes and work the corner of 5th and Broadway.....

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Dang youre quick on the trigger Ian - I'm listening

----------------

John Allen has a big point. If the TV goes off I'm done. So it makes sense to me to get all used off the shelf pitot static gear (low probability of failure) but definite rebuilt AI and maybe DG, maybe not. Got a wet compass as back up I suppose. T&B dunno - rebuilt or OTS? RPM, yeah OTS.

Thoughts?
 
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maniago said:
Ok Ian, I know SE can project steam gauges. I can do that. But Can an SE be upgraded to full skyview software at a later date? If so, I might just get out the organ grinder and tap shoes and work the corner of 5th and Broadway.....

-----
Dang youre quick on the trigger Ian - I'm listening
Click to expand...

Yes it can
 
Mike S,

I know there's gear to be bought and sold. I'm asking a guidance question - what steam should you buy used and what steam should you buy rebuilt.

Wentworth has shelves and shelves of steam gauges for pennies on the dollar. But whats the experience that steam guys have with used gauges and reliability?

(FWIW guys, I'm an EE by trade. But not enamored with glass really at all. And I'm under 50. Go figure. I also like WWI airplanes and old Harleys. Oh well. :)
 
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maniago said:
Mike S,

I know there's gear to be bought and sold. I'm asking a guidance question - what steam should you buy used and what steam should you buy rebuilt.

Wentworth has shelves and shelves of steam gauges for pennies on the dollar. But whats the experience that steam guys have with used gauges and reliability?

(FWIW guys, I'm an EE by trade. But not enamored with glass really at all. And I'm under 50. Go figure. I also like WWI airplanes and old Harleys. Oh well. :)
Click to expand...

If you're intent on steam, I'd compromise. Buy one of the mini-type EFIS units (new or used, as I said my D10 was $500) rather than a vacuum-based attitude indicator / turn coordinator. That way you don't have the maintenance concern of a vacuum system. You can use steam gauges for altitude, airspeed, VSI, etc. Sure, the EFIS can display that stuff too, and maybe you'll come to like it, but if not, you have your beloved steam gauges right there in front of you. You also have redundancy if a steam gauge happens to go INOP. Many of the mini EFIS units can also be an autopilot control unit if you add servos later.

I will also put in another plug for the GTR-200 Comm radio. Price was right and the built-in intercom is great and a $ saver.

Make the panel modular or easy to change. If for some reason you ever go to sell, the hard fact is that most buyers will want glass or at least an easy change.

Chris
 
maniago said:
Did I forget to mention that I just dont like tapes?

Does noone have a good word to put in for steam?
Click to expand...
Nope! If you' re old enough, I liken them to the old cars with the starter button down on the floorboard just off to the right of the gas pedal. Oh, and also, headlight dimmer switches down on the floorboard to the left of the clutch pedal.

Anyone remember those? When is the last time you drove a car with either of them?

Live Long and Prosper!
 
RVbySDI said:
Nope! If you' re old enough, I liken them to the old cars with the starter button down on the floorboard just off to the right of the gas pedal. Oh, and also, headlight dimmer switches down on the floorboard to the left of the clutch pedal.

Anyone remember those? When is the last time you drove a car with either of them?

Live Long and Prosper!
Click to expand...

Right with you = the 65 C-10 in my driveway. How about the factory floor mounted foot pump for a windshield squirter in my '72&76 Capri? Heard of that? Not many have. What I never could fathom was the suicide shifter. That was plain stupid.

Ian brought up a good point with his SE, and so I prob blew the original question.

......An entire panel, radios, com, nav, xpdr and steam - the whole shooting VFR match for 6k. Maybe the D10 for the center to drop out the vacuum issues. Can it be done reliably?
 
What you're seeing here is that these days, if you're talking new, you can get more capability for less money with glass. Now, if you're willing to buy used, the steam gets cheaper (because no one wants them!) but you have to decide what the (possibly lower) reliability is worth.
If your home airport has an ILS then you can look at what it will cost to get into that. Most pilots will want backup flight instruments, plus you may need MB or (gasp!) an ADF depending on your airport. OR a used non-WAAS but TSO'd (TSO 129) gps, to do non-precision approaches and sub for LOM's, etc. (still need a VOR to be legal). But going IFR will cost more; going for a newer GPS (TSO'd) will cost a lot more.
 
maniago said:
I got two kids in college and I'd love to keep fooling myself that I deserve that deluxe dual Skyview IFR panel and GNS650, but it aint gonna happen. $24K is not in the cards. Infact I'm pretty much outta schlitz. That said, I trained like most on steam and steam failures so I'm not totally put out.

So how much of a reasonably descent MTBF steam panel can I get for 6K? And where can I cut corners with off the shelf used and should I not cut and get rebuilt? Can I get an autopilot, or should I save my pennies for a GPS. I don't think both are $ feasible.

I'm potentially within a year of first flight, but too far away from 2020 to wait for whatever the ADSB mandate will be then and then equip. I know I'm in for an upgrade, but kids will be outta college by 2018 and so I'll have cash to work with by 2020. I need a cost effective flyable 3yr solution on a budget - VFR probably, cause I don't see how I can do it IFR.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Mani six K is a lot of money you can go for less. Read the regs what is required for Day VFR and start looking for gauges now. Plan for a nice simple radio and a newer transponder you will be flying in a busy airspace it's paramount to have it loud and clear. Your DAR might be a bit surprised but the regs clearly say what basic instrumentation you need to be certified. Just an opinion from a guy who is always on a budget :D





 
Vlad said:
Your DAR might be a bit surprised but the regs clearly say what basic instrumentation you need to be certified. Just an opinion from a guy who is always on a budget :D
Click to expand...

The regs are very clear: If you stick to day vfr NOTHING is required. (You may need to convince your DAR of that).
 
Ok lets be realistic. I don't want to die and I dont want to kill anyone else. There are rules and then there's good judgement. And I live under the DC SFRA.

We're not in Kansas any more Toto.

6K -radios nav gear xpdr, 6pack. Just like a C-172 I guess. Which steam gauges do I buy rebuilt and which OTS ie take risk on?

Noones answered the original question. Just hearing what I should do instead.
 
Vlad said:
Mani six K is a lot of money you can go for less. Read the regs what is required for Day VFR and start looking for gauges now. Plan for a nice simple radio and a newer transponder you will be flying in a busy airspace it's paramount to have it loud and clear. Your DAR might be a bit surprised but the regs clearly say what basic instrumentation you need to be certified. Just an opinion from a guy who is always on a budget :D





Click to expand...

Hey Vlad! This is NOT what the regs mean by being 2020 compliant :D

I'm just saying.....

Ivan
 
maniago said:
We're not in Kansas any more Toto.
Click to expand...

Some of us are. And the Skyview works just great here too! :D

If you take just the cost of a vacuum pump (~$400) and a cheap attitude indicator (Falcon, $735 at Spruce), not even counting all the plumbing and filters, etc, you've already spent what a Garmin G5 costs. And with the Garmin G5, you also get airspeed indicator, altimeter (that also serves as the encoder for your transponder), vertical speed, turn coordinator, and lots more. All in just one hole in your instrument panel. The Dynon D-10A is a similar package and price point. Forget all that other stuff, you're money WAY ahead with glass.

If you love the look and feel of steam gauges, or you don't want to get used to tapes, then fine. But then you're not going cheap, which is what your original post asked for. (Well, that and MTBF, which is also in general WAY higher with new glass). Gone are the days that steam gauges were cheaper.
 
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Go look at a Cub or T-craft panel to see what you really need.

If you leave off the alternator (just a battery and starter), you don't need a transponder or ADS-B. Your battery could power a radio and transponder, if you must.

Put out a WTB ad for a Dynon D10 and a Garmin 496, if you want to fly at night. There have been enough SkyView upgrades that someone might have one they want to sell.

As for back up instruments, in a VFR ship, don't bother.
 
maniago said:
Ok lets be realistic. I don't want to die and I dont want to kill anyone else. There are rules and then there's good judgement. And I live under the DC SFRA.

We're not in Kansas any more Toto.

6K -radios nav gear xpdr, 6pack. Just like a C-172 I guess. Which steam gauges do I buy rebuilt and which OTS ie take risk on?

Noones answered the original question. Just hearing what I should do instead.
Click to expand...

Which to buy OTS? Buy from a VAF'er for your ASI, ALT, electric T&B, with the condition that they are serviceable. Same goes for older radios. If you insist on installing vacuum-powered instruments, then likewise for them.

Which to buy rebuilt? The short answer = NONE of them. Buy cheap, take your chances, and be prepared to change out the hardware regularly. If you spend the $$ that folks want for good rebuilt instruments then you'll not hit your $6K target, plain and simple.

I think the message that others here are trying to convey is that vacuum-driven attitude indicators and directional gyro's from a traditional 6-pack are TROUBLE. You will spend more on them than they are worth. You'll then be saddled with a vacuum pump that will **** out at 500 hours or less. The well-intentioned advice given by others here is to save yourself the frustration by installing a small, inexpensive EFIS for your attitude and heading indications. Sure, keep your steam gauges for ASI, ALT, T&B - you will perhaps refer to them regularly, or you may be like me, install them, then find the concise, integrated information format of the EFIS is just a lot easier to fly.

With respect to radios, there are several comm radios that are pretty good and may be found on the used market. The ICOM A200 and the SL40 are a couple of them. Another that's worth mentioning is the XCOM radio - it has an excellent built-in intercom. Same for the MGL V6 radio - likely the best of the bunch in terms of its built-in intercom.

I would strongly recommend that you run your audio connections to an intermediate break-out connector, so that, at a later date, when you decide to install an audio panel, all you have to do is wire the audio panel to the break-out connector.

If you are living near the DC SFRA you definitely want to spend your bucks on a good moving map GPS and the subscription service to keep it updated. The cost of an airspace "bust" should make this item your top spending priority.

With the tips provided in this thread, you should have no trouble hitting your $6K mark.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Which to buy OTS? Buy from a VAF'er for your ASI, ALT, electric T&B, with the condition that they are serviceable. Same goes for older radios. If you insist on installing vacuum-powered instruments, then likewise for them.

Which to buy rebuilt? The short answer = NONE of them. Buy cheap, take your chances, and be prepared to change out the hardware regularly. If you spend the $$ that folks want for good rebuilt instruments then you'll not hit your $6K target, plain and simple.

I think the message that others here are trying to convey is that vacuum-driven attitude indicators and directional gyro's from a traditional 6-pack are TROUBLE. You will spend more on them than they are worth. You'll then be saddled with a vacuum pump that will **** out at 500 hours or less. The well-intentioned advice given by others here is to save yourself the frustration by installing a small, inexpensive EFIS for your attitude and heading indications. Sure, keep your steam gauges for ASI, ALT, T&B - you will perhaps refer to them regularly, or you may be like me, install them, then find the concise, integrated information format of the EFIS is just a lot easier to fly.

With respect to radios, there are several comm radios that are pretty good and may be found on the used market. The ICOM A200 and the SL40 are a couple of them. Another that's worth mentioning is the XCOM radio - it has an excellent built-in intercom. Same for the MGL V6 radio - likely the best of the bunch in terms of its built-in intercom.

I would strongly recommend that you run your audio connections to an intermediate break-out connector, so that, at a later date, when you decide to install an audio panel, all you have to do is wire the audio panel to the break-out connector.

If you are living near the DC SFRA you definitely want to spend your bucks on a good moving map GPS and the subscription service to keep it updated. The cost of an airspace "bust" should make this item your top spending priority.

With the tips provided in this thread, you should have no trouble hitting your $6K mark.
Click to expand...


Ok Joy.

Thanks everyone. I have enough new puzzle pieces that I didn't know about to ponder now.
 
Here's your six pack: http://www.trutrakap.com/product/gemini-pfd No vacuum and no tapes.$1550 with the backup battery.

Then you'll need radio/intercom. This is a good round one: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ty91vhfradio.php $1700

Transponder: http://www.skygeek.com/0547-972-915...aign=froogle&gclid=CJXd3tmJiswCFQ4zaQodt7sHRQ $2200

You've got ~$1200 to get fuel gauge, EGT/CHT, Oil temp/pressure, Tach, and amps.

For new vs used question: if you're going to use vacuum, buy all new. If it is electronic go ahead and buy some of the "removed for upgrade" items.
 
what to do

Pick up a steam altimeter and airspeed used off VAF member. Buy a D10 from Dynon just because they responded first to your question and put that smack in the middle of your panel with the steam gauges either side from backup. Then get a used Garmin 327 transponder, and Garmin 200 com (no need for audio panel with this one). Then you are done. Who needs RPM. It either runs or it dont. Who need EGT and CHT. Just lean it out till it coughs and add some back in. Think cheap.

As for GPS, lots of options out there that won't break the bank. Garmin 660, IFly 740, or maybe an older portable that someone is willing to sell here.
 
Go Garmin!

grubbat said:
Pick up a steam altimeter and airspeed used off VAF member. Buy a D10 from Dynon just because they responded first to your question and put that smack in the middle of your panel with the steam gauges either side from backup. Then get a used Garmin 327 transponder, and Garmin 200 com (no need for audio panel with this one). Then you are done. Who needs RPM. It either runs or it dont. Who need EGT and CHT. Just lean it out till it coughs and add some back in. Think cheap.

As for GPS, lots of options out there that won't break the bank. Garmin 660, IFly 740, or maybe an older portable that someone is willing to sell here.
Click to expand...

Not a bad way to go but...........

Round AS and Alt (used) $300 -$400
Garmin G5 $1200
Garmin GMC 305 (used) $400
2 Garmin GSA28 servo's $1500
Garmin Aera 660 $850
Garmin GDL 39 (used) $400
Garmin GTR 200 com $1200
Garmin GTX 327 TXP (used) $1000
Engine monitor or cheap gauges at your discretion (GRT EIS 4000 4 probe EGT/CHT etc. $1000)
That's around $8 k total but you have autopilot mapping and weather.
 
maniago said:
I got two kids in college and I'd love to keep fooling myself that I deserve that deluxe dual Skyview IFR panel and GNS650, but it aint gonna happen. $24K is not in the cards. Infact I'm pretty much outta schlitz. That said, I trained like most on steam and steam failures so I'm not totally put out.

So how much of a reasonably descent MTBF steam panel can I get for 6K? And where can I cut corners with off the shelf used and should I not cut and get rebuilt? Can I get an autopilot, or should I save my pennies for a GPS. I don't think both are $ feasible.

I'm potentially within a year of first flight, but too far away from 2020 to wait for whatever the ADSB mandate will be then and then equip. I know I'm in for an upgrade, but kids will be outta college by 2018 and so I'll have cash to work with by 2020. I need a cost effective flyable 3yr solution on a budget - VFR probably, cause I don't see how I can do it IFR.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Sure, There is a gentleman on this site RIGHT NOW trying to sell a GRT WS 2 panel system complete with GPS for 1800 bucks.

A new COM 1000
A GTX 327 1000
An EIS 4000 with fuel flow is around 1300.

This would be a very nice upgradeable VFR system.

Autopilot upgrade would be 1500 (2 servo's at 750 ea) and it will connect to just about any future IFR navigator your choose plus it will integrate with any ADSB direction you go.
 
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