Learning to fly without killing yourself

Since we've got this whole "come to Jesus meeting" area here....

I've heard it said that a PPL is not a license to fly, but a license to learn. It's also commonly said that an instructors job is not so much to teach a student to fly, but rather to let the student learn to fly on their own without killing them both in the process. Hind-sight being what it is, I realize now just how little my primary instructor knew and passed on to me.

Early March of '98, I took my PPL checkride (C-172) and passed at 42 hours total time, on a gorgeous Thursday afternoon. With my newly minted ticket in hand, I booked the airplane for the entire weekend, flew from Dallas to San Angelo on Friday afternoon, and way early on Saturday morning we set out for Durango, CO to do some snow-skiing on the fresh powder that the latest cold front had dumped. We had beautiful CAVU all the way, and I was certain that I knew everything there was to know, since the FAA had just told me so. Around ABQ we were picking up about 40-50 knots on the nose, and landed for fuel and stayed put for about 2 hours while the winds died down a bit. The mountain wave activity coming in to ABQ was rather interesting - but that's a whole 'nuther story!

Departing ABQ just a hair under gross for Durango (1:30 enroute) with three aboard, slight baggage, and full fuel, I was very careful to fly by the numbers with the high density altitude. Slow climb, but everything was good into Durango. We knew the winds were going to be fun at Durango, as they have only one runway (9000') and it was going to be a significant crosswind. I had the foresight to leave ABQ with full fuel as an ultimate backup plan, we could always go back to ABQ if we had to.

To set this up, I took all my PPL training in the flatlands of Texas, most of it just east of Dallas. No mountain experience, no true high-altitude experience, and very little X-wind experience. Less than 50 hours total time at arrival DRO. Sound like fun yet? So here we come with a density altitude of right at 9000 feet, MAYBE 200 pounds under gross in a 172, with what turns out to be a 60 degree left cross at 25 gusting 33. No problem, says I - I've done crosswind landings in training and I can do it here too.

As I set up on approach, I knew my descent rate would be a little higher due to density altitude, so I left a little more vertical cushion. Crabbed in significantly, dropped full flaps just like I had on almost all my other landings, and maintained about 70 knots on approach. At around 300 feet altitude it became obvious that my crab angle was hideous and I was about to run out of rudder trying to slip enough to keep it straight. Already starting to blow downwind of the runway alignment, I did the smart thing and powered up, sucked up some flaps, leveled, sucked up the rest of the flaps, and went around for another shot.

Second verse, same as the first. Lined up on the left edge of the runway, figuring to let the wind blow me across a little bit if need be during flare. Again, 70 knots with full flaps. This time I got down to about 40 feet in much better shape, when the devil bit my butt. There were some upwind hangars on the approach end of the runway, and the rolling turbulence coming off those hangars across the threshold nearly got me. When I first felt it, I did the only smart thing I would do for the next 30 seconds, I went to full power and abandoned all thought of the runway. Of course, being a low-time pilot with no high altitude experience, I was also running full-rich so full throttle was not giving me my best engine output. I did quit fighting the crosswind and swiveled directly into the wind to eliminate cross-controlled airspeed losses, and the wind was still carrying me to the right of the runway while I was rolling the wings about 45 degrees each way in the rolling turbulence.

Did I mention the full flaps approach? Yeah, well, they were still there, totally forgot about that for the moment. I was now off the runway downwind, over nice flat grass, at about 4 or 5 feet with low sink rate, stall horn screaming, with me just trying to keep the wings level so I don't cartwheel if one catches the ground, in nearly full-blind panic. I was about ready to try to slip back forward again as I knew there was no way to avoid touching down at what was roughly a 30 degree crab, when a little ground effect (and a couple angels too, maybe) gave me just enough lift to avoid touching down - I don't think I missed the ground by more than 8 inches.

By now I had flown out of the hangar-induced turbulence and things stabilized a bit. I did the next smart thing, and pulled up about 1/3 of my flaps. Within a few seconds the now-intermittent stall warning stopped chirping and I started a slow climb, still over the grass median on the east side of the runway. I nursed it along, sucking up a little more flap at a time. Finally remembered to lean for full power at about 500 AGL. I kept trying to catch my breath as I continued a slow climb to about 1500 AGL, making a couple circuits around the field as I did so. DRO is untowered, but someone on Unicom asked me if I needed assistance from an instructor for the approach, I replied that there would not be another approach attempted at this airport today. I flew south of the field to stay out of the rising terrain and consulted my sectional, and decided to fly over to Animas Airpark on the west side of town, they had a much narrower runway with a more favorable heading into the wind. I made a zero-flaps 100 knot flyover at 100 feet to check for turbulence, and then went around and made a textbook crosswind landing with zero flaps. $30 for a cab to get to Durango where our rental car was waiting. I didn't stop shaking for an hour.

I look back on that episode now and just start counting the mistakes and shaking my head. I had no right to avoid wrinkling metal. ****, I had no right attempting that flight with my low time and insufficient training, but I didn't even realize that at the time. My buddies went skiing the next day, and I spent 5 hours with an instructor doing some real mountain flying and learning fast. Best money I ever spent, in my opinion. We got another day of skiing in, and I transferred the airplane to DRO while they returned the rent car. CAVU night flight back home was entirely uneventful with 40 knots consistently on the tail, though I did burn almost 4000 feet of runway getting out of DRO, holding it down until almost 80 knots indicated.

My primary instructor was only building time for a corporate jet job, he didn't have his heart in instructing and was young and inexperienced as well and didn't really know how to teach the skills he had acquired. A PPL is a license to learn, and at least for some, a CFI is a license to learn how to teach. I survived my trial by fire and I've become a very skeptical pilot because of it, with constant situational analysis and Plan B,C,D ready to be put into effect. I won't take an underpowered airplane into high terrain again, and I've made a constant game of finding the worst X-wind situations I can and running T/G's in those conditions. Narrow runways, grass runways, sloping runways, you name it. I don't know what my next flying challenge will be, but I hope to be a little more ready for it than my first one.

Great story Greg and well told.

One of the lessons I learned was to fly with different instructors every once in a while during training. I did that by accident one time when my instructor was sick unexpectedly and the new guy was a breath of fresh air. He taught me more in one flight than I learned in 10 with my original guy. He immediately corrected some bad habits that I had developed too.

airguy said:

My primary instructor was only building time for a corporate jet job, he didn't have his heart in instructing and was young and inexperienced as well and didn't really know how to teach the skills he had acquired.

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Yep, this in a nutshell is the root of a lot of problems new pilots encounter.

I had a great time with one of these types a few years ago--------early 20s female with attitude. Major attitude, as in Gods gift to aviation.

I made a point of asking her for a BFR in the pilots lounge with a bunch of old timers sitting around. She agreed, and I pointed out to my 1948 Stinson, (little wheel in back) which was outside. Her rather indignant response of "I cant fly that" was all the "airport bums" needed. The sound of their laughter was sweet as I headed out the door.

Moral of the story, is, as Randy said. You can learn a lot by using different instructors. And, some instructors could learn from you, if their ego doesnt get in the way.

Ego, by the way, should be on the list of primary accident causes.

Mike

On a recent BFR, with several hundred hours under my belt, I had the 20-something instructor pull the power off at 2500 AGL and announce "emergency landing". I immediately dumped full flaps and turned hard left 120 degrees (into the wind) on a perfect steep final for a grass grazing pasture of ideal length and position that we had just passed, while the instructor proceeded to absolutely have a conniption fit about me using flaps.

"Never ever EVER use flaps on an engine out landing!!" this kid was yelling at me. I said, rather loudly, "BS - if the engine quits, I use EVERYTHING on the airplane that is useful to get it on the ground safely. Keep your hands off the controls, I have the airplane!" and proceeded to make a beautiful dead-stick full flaps landing in the grazing pasture. Killed the engine, we got out and had a bit of a talk before we got in and took off again.

Bottomline, he had always been trained to save altitude above all else - always hit best glide speed, no flaps, shallow turns, etc etc. That works great if you need to stretch a glide to a good landing, but I needed to dump energy quickly to get to a good landing. It's all about situational awareness. I explained to him why I did what I did instead of the standard reaction, and he signed off on my BFR. Poor kid had never been trained to think out of the box, he just did what he'd always been told to do on paper.

Good instructors are hard to find

I had four or five instructors before I got my PPL--the Air Force moved me around a bit. All were okay, except one, maybe. Then I found Dave. He was great! He loved to teach, not only how to fly, but why there was a Right Way. That was thirty years ago, but we are still friends and I still have him tune me up from time to time. An hour straight and level on a X-C with Dave and I am sweating. He is my flight advisor (although he isn't "official" in that position) and will be on the radio for my first flight in N908BL. There is no one else I trust as far when it comes to telling me what to do, should I need assistance.

On the flip side, my partner learned from the "time builder" types. I am waiting for Dave to give him a good workout in our plane. I'm sure it will be a learning experience. I rode back seat with him during a lesson before he got his PPL. I watched as the instructor let him fly with the ball about a ball-width out of center for probably 15 minutes. I guess he didn't know I was a pilot and after we landed he asked how I liked the lesson. He probably didn't like my reply.

Don't waste money with someone who doesn't care about you as a pilot. Then keep on learning with every flight.

Bob Kelly

Unique experience-results may vary

Let's see...get a PPL as quickly, cheaply, and timely as possible. A course that teaches the checkride comes to mind.

Then, go bum time with someone that has lots of experience. Single pilot night freight dogs top the list. If they have not yet killed themselves, they probably have at least some idea as to what they're doing.

Always have a place to land, a plan, if the engine quits right now, especially during takeoff and approach phases.

Consider flying approaches in little airplanes, when ATC speed, altitude assignments are not involved, by varying drag not power. Good practice that could save your arse.

Don't go try aerobatics without formal instruction.

Caution advised.... If you get too much flight time or too many ratings, etc., you may end up in the manic-depressive airline pilot profession and industry.

As one of those 20-something instructors myself, I can certainly testify that there are a lot of CFI's my age that are out there for no benefit other than their own. It really is terrible, but a sad fact of pilot's life.

There are a few of us, however, that truly do enjoy the instruction side of things and are always making the effort to make ourselves better instructors. For me personally, I am all for "outside of the box" thinking, and always welcome new ideas from students. I know that despite my ratings and time (CFII, 850+TT) I still have a LOT to learn about flying, and I also know that every pilot out there will know something I don't. One of my goals is to try and learn something new for myself every day, either from a flight, ground lesson, sim lesson, etc.

If it makes you feel any better, most of those hour-craving CFI's whom really don't know anything normally don't make too many friends in the industry, and with an industry this small, it will most likely come back to haunt them in the future with not getting the next job. I personally know several who this has already happened to. So don't worry, they'll get theirs

instructors

My first long cross country as a student pilot taught me a lesson no flight instructor could ever teach. With 25 hours of total time I set off on a 350 mile trip on a beautiful Nov morning from Miami, Fl Up into Ga. I was flying the 90hp Aeronca 7EC I had not long ago soloed in.
Weather man gave me a CAVU report and forcast all the way to Georgia. What he didnt say later woke me up from an uneventful FDAH (fat dumb and happy) joy ride.

I roved on up the coast past FTL, on past PBI taking in all the sights I had never before seen and watching the cars on US 1. Cars?? What the heck is going on?? Is that 18 wheeler PASSING me and im showing 80 mph? Good grief, I better do a ground speed check. I crank up the whiz wheel putting in my time between FTL and PBI and almost jumped out my seat. 35 mph? My ground speed is 35 mph. That cant be. I start looking around for smoke, and I see some laying flat against the ground in a long plum uh oh. I look at the intercoastal and all I can see is White caps on the water. Uh oh.

I call up ORL flight service. A really kind gentle voice says "I hate to tell you this, but surface winds have picked up and are now 40 knots for your entire route. Wind at 3000 is 50 knots". I felt a huge lump in my throat, it was hard to swallow. OK, thanks I said.

What the heck am I gonna do now. I felt a little turbulence, but it didnt seem extreem to me. 40 knots, I never seen more than 10 or 12 in my entire flight time of 25 hours. Im in trouble was my only thought, I better get on the ground if only for fuel and check this out. Ahh theres Ft Pierce, Ill land and get some fuel.

Call up 122.8, no one answers. Call again and again, no one answers. Now its getting rough, I am bouncing like im riding a horse. Better over fly and take a look at the wind sock. Oh good, its blowing straight down 31, but why is it dancing so hard from side to side. I turn down wind, it was like hitting passing gear, now Im whizzing along out over the intercoastal before I can think up a plan. Good grief, look at all those white caps. I knew what white caps meant because I raced a sailboat once in 25kts. I better turn back in before I blow out over the ocean.

On final for 31, like putting on the brakes. Sloowly I approached the runway, Its 5000 feet I think Ill land a little long I dont guess I need all that for a champ. Over the numbers, should I stall land or wheel land? Dang, my wheel landings never work good, I always bounce a bit before I stick. I better wheel land anyway. I look out the side window, I can almost get out and walk, but Im indicating 80. Chhiirp. the wheels screech pavement. What the heck?? Suddeenly Im 50 feet back in the air looking at blue sky wondering what happened. Full power, stick the nose down, and fly it on out. Ok so Ill do a go around. Its cold, but Im sweating streaks down my face. Now I gotta figure what did I do wrong? Umm ok, I bet I didnt slam the stick hard forward when I touched. I was always scared to do that, and so I bounced on my wheel landings

On final for another go. I concentrate this time to slam the stick forward like Col Chuck Geen yelled at me from the back seat. Booeingg,, I bounce back in the air again. Full power and another go around. I could feel mysel this time gently nudging the stick forward instead of pushing hard. Ok this time I gotta do it right, Im getting scared, and Im tired, this is not a good place to screw up. Maybe I better stall land I think. No this is not the place for a stall landing I better keep my speed on 70 or more.

Third time was the charm. I rammed the stick hard when the wheels chripped and the champ stuck like glue. Wheeehhheee.. now all I gotta do is roll out and taxi in 40 kts. So I do, taxi to the gas pumps and shut down. Theres a T-6 parked at the pumps. Ill never forget this one Im thinking.

Im sitting at the lunch counter having coffee beside another gent wearing blue jeans and cowboy boots, and I ask If he will sign my log book for solo crosscountry. Yep he says. I ask him if he was flying today, and he says "yep, I just landed ahead of you in that T-6, it got to rough for me and I had to stop for a break".

I gassed up, taxied out and headed back for Miami. I had enough of this stuff. Your instructor aint gonna be with ya when the chips are down.

Choose your CFI carefully - and don't do what I did

No, don't choose a twenty something airline pilot wanna be. I made that mistake myself.

I had just taken a new job and moved across the country to San Jose. One fine weekend while sitting alone in my corporate apartment I got bored and wanted to try something different. I decided to go for a flight lesson.

I looked up www.beapilot.com and got a list of people in San Jose. I only considered the ones with webpages. I called a few numbers of the "cheaper guys" but got no answers except one, and so I decided to check this guy out.

I met him at RHV and we talked a bit. He was about 22 year old and claimed that flight instructing was all he ever wanted to do. I wanted the $49 intro flight and off we went to his plane. I get out to the ramp and his plane was a beater. Bad worn down paint job, bad upholstery, dirty, trash in the back. But, he told me, "It is IFR rated and it gets inspections every 100 hours". He also said he had a guarantee that I would pass my checkride in 40 hours, and if I didn't, he would give me free flight time and training until I did pass the checkride. Not knowing any better and not wanting to back out after investing the effort to get this far, I went for a flight.

The flight was a quick flight south of RHV over towards Hollister and back. When we got back I sort of said to myself, "what the heck let's do it", and so I signed up to get instruction from him.

I would quickly learn that he had his own new style of flight instruction. He called it "Attitude Flying", but it had nothing to do with anything you might learn in instrument training. He wanted me to control the airplane in all phases of flight strictly by looking out the window and referencing the horizon to a mark on the window. For example, to take off, the procedure was that at 60 knots I would pitch the airplane for a "two finger climb". To land, I was to reduce power and pitch down for a two finger descent and trim - and dont be looking at the airspeed indicator. Turns were also by reference to the grease pencil mark. I was not to look at the instruments, especially not the airspeed indicator or the turn coordinator. He never taught me to fly coordinated. I had no idea of what a Vy or a Vx climb was other than one required a two finger pitch and the other required three fingers. And don't worry about that stall warning horn during takeoff - just pitch two fingers and you will be fine.

Anyhow, I slowly made it towards soloing and cross country flights. I even took the video camera along for a few flights with it pointing straight ahead from the back seat. Watching those videos now is just plain scary - first solo takeoffs were with the stall warning horn blaring with the turn coordinator showing uncoordinated flight. But I didn't know any better.

He eventually sent me off for my three point cross country the first two legs of which went OK. I landed at the second airport (the former Castle AFB) on a 12000 foot B-52 runway. But when I went to do the runup before departing for home, I noticed the ammeter was showing discharge and it had never done that before. I stopped the plane and got out and went to call him for instructions. He was upset that his plane was stranded 150 miles from home. He tried to troubleshoot the plane by remote control but the discharge became even worse. "D**n", he said, "this is the third time it has done this." I wanted him to come out and get me. He did fly out in a Warrior, but it was not to bring me home - he wanted to have me turn off the electrical systems and fly the plane back by myself!

I should have said no. I REALLY should have said no. But I felt pressured by the authority of the CFI and I didn't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. He gave me his portable radio and told me to go ahead and fly home. He would follow in the other plane. Reluctantly, I went ahead with the flight. Looking back on it now, I realize that I would have been flying into the sunset, over unfamiliar mountainous terrain with lots of jet traffic, with no transponder, no VORS, no lights, no electric fuel pump and possibly no way to lower the flaps, or worse, I might lower them but not be able to raise them again if I needed to do a go around. Oh, and I had never done a no-flaps landing.

It was getting dark by the time I got back over the mountains and lined up for RHV. He didn't fly along with me, but rather just flew on ahead "Give me a call when you get back," he radioed me. "0-6 Uniform, I have negative transponder return on you" radioed RHV tower. Great, I am flying around in crowded Bay area traffic with no transponder to help ATC keep other traffic away from me.

I landed normally. I thought things over for a few days and then fired him. He took it personally and claimed *I* had dangerous attitudes toward flying and it was a good thing that I was moving on (!)

The next instructor was a bit more conventional - he was someone who had been flying GA for 20-30 years and did flight instruction fulltime because he wanted to. But he felt he had to start nearly from the beginning to retrain me the way I should have been trained. After about 30 more hours with him I was flying solo. But he never really trusted me because of how I had been taught and we eventually had a falling out - I couldn't really see how badly the first guy had taught me since I had already gotten through all my cross country soloes.

One more flight instructor, this one who was a gold seal master CFI 30 years of experience type, and I had to go through soloing a third time. After about 120 hours total time I finally passed the test. Yikes! That's the hard way to learn how to fly!

In the meantime, the first guy has "moved on to higher levels of flight training" - he is in the UK as a freelance flight instructor charging $100/hour and claims he doesn't do primary training anymore. Just a matter of time before he is flying an airliner...

I'd like to see that guy try his 2-finger takeoff hot, high, and heavy like my Durango departure experience!

Mr. Attitude Flying...

airguy said:

I'd like to see that guy try his 2-finger takeoff hot, high, and heavy like my Durango departure experience!

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I'd like to give him a one finger takeoff, IF you KNOW what I mean.


JCB

Advanced flight instruction

I have had a few hours of the visual reference instruction from an instructor who specializes in that. He trains missionary pilots for the toughest flying in the world. To be a student, you must be commercial, instrument rated and have an A&P, THEN he give you 60 hours where he teaches you to FLY. I have done several videos on his techniques and he can do things with an airplane I didn't think possible. BUT this is NOT for beginners!!!

Those few hours where I had instruction from him, he had me back up everything with instruments. Starting out someone that way is crazy. But believe me, if I were in a tough situation, guess who I'd want in the right seat?

I really believe finding a good instructor is key to being a good pilot. Dave (mentioned in an earlier post) is what I need at this point; someone to get me through what I believe will be a rather simple transition period with my new plane. When the time comes, I hope to do some of the advanced stuff (although I can't see myself landing on 22 degree slopes!) Don't put down the visual reference style of flying until you have seen what it can do. Just don't try it until you learn the basics.

Bob Kelly

My instructor at LBA (Long Beach)...

Well, after the first year at the university in Italy, my parents paid me the PPL in US and I chose a flight school in Long Beach (by the way, the school is not existing anymore).
Back in 1994 the unique new single aircraft in production was the Tampico TB-9,a european (as I am), very asmatic (read underpowered),very French (read very comfortable) aircraft, with two big gull door.
In those days (maybe right now), LBA was VERY busy compared to the uncrowded italian skies and the very difficult task, for me, was understanding the incredible flow of words coming from ATC, I think they still remember me as Mr. Say Again or Mr. Student-pilot-please-can-you-repeat-slowly.

My CFI always stressed me on the idea that I had to be very proactive with ATC, therefore very fast, because of the lot of traffic. This made me think that ATC was the king and I had to comply wathever without thinking too much (you think it is silly? I know, I know young and with no experience...).

So, after my Solo, I was ready for the long X-country that was a non event, flying to Twenty-Nine Palms and a very hot Blythe (we were in August).

Back to LBA, the ATC of LBA told me -N6909A touch & go? (something like that, he was used to e asked with touch and goes with that aircraft); I was tired, thirsty and so I said (obviuosly) yes.
I did the first and then a second on 25L and then he told me, -OK if you want to do another touch and go you need to wait, it must be a full stop taxi back this time.
So I did.
While I was waiting holding short 25L, I opened th gull door for the air, I relaxed back and said to myself, everything has been smooth, this experience in US is ending and it is great.
-Are you ready for an immediate departure?-LBA said.
-Sure!!!!!- thinking "how cool I am..."

While I was taxing with my David Clark on, reaching the 60 knots speed, I realized that many ghosts were flying in the cabin.
Actually they were piece of papers flying because I left the door open. grabbed istantly with left hand, left knee to keep the cloche centered, right hand on throttle and raising flap.

No time for stopping, I remember that I thought, no problem, but I could not hold the door down. While on upwind I remember that I tried to hook leaving both hands (no, the doors of the TB9 are not like the new Cirrus, you need two hands!), no way.
I thought:
-Am I going to leave the door? The blow would certainly remove it, will it hit the tail?
-Declaring emergency?
-Will I see friends and parents again in Italy?

Than in the downwind, I declared "a problem" to ATC, they kept on saying "do you want to declare emergency?", it seemed like a movie.

Well at the end, I slowed down the aircraft until it was nearly the stall with full flap and with a fast (very fast) move I made it, closing the door. I said to ATC that everything was OK, just a small problem solved.
Then I got my PPL and now I'm flying with my RV.

By the way, guess how many times I check that the canopy is closed and hook in place in my RV...

Lessons learned: always, always, always fly the airplane. My CFI stressed a lot on ATC (because I was poor on that since I'm not English mothertongue, maybe forgiving a bit the other essential things...)

I did have a door pop open in flight on me once, in a Mooney C model coming out of Addison. Had just been cleared to climb from 2k to 4k south of Dallas Love when it popped open about 2 inches, the slipstream kept it from going any further. This airplane only has one door, on the passenger side, and with a passenger in the right seat there was no way I could attempt to close the door in flight, my passenger is freaking out and screaming that she doesn't want to die, my charts are now circulating in the air stream vortex just behind our heads, the noise level is horrendous and Approach is asking me to readback my climb clearance again.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

I took a breath, stayed at 2000', told the passenger to shut up, and told ATC we needed to make a precautionary at Redbird for an unlatched door. They vectored me around some traffic, we landed about 4 minutes later, shut the door, my passenger finally quit hyperventilating, I collected my charts, and we refiled and departed.

Well, just to counterpoint the horror stories <g>

I had the best luck you can imagine with instructors. It was a small school, with interval rides with the chief pilot. My instructor was a young lady, good with the airplane, an excellent teacher, and with a knack for making it fun. The chief pilot was a 16,000 hr non-airline ATP who had done more than a little instruction himself. Interval checkrides were much more than just checks. The CP had a knack for finding the blank spots and filling them with a different voice, a different way, or a different method.

I had absolute confidence in both of them. We marched through the PPL like Sherman to Atlanta, 41 hours and 60 days start to finish, while I worked a 40 hour/wk job at the airport. Started spin training the day after the checkride, and a complex endorsement the week after that. I have not seen either instructor in many years, but I am forever in their debt for the foundation they gave me...quality people.

I had a young, fresh out of school ATP wannabe and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. He felt it was a priviledge for him to be able to fly. He had lots of hours to build up and he wasn't going to rush me through training. We had a lot of fun flying. What I liked about him the most was the fact that he would take me up in bad weather. Crosswinds, rain, high winds just as long as it was VFR. There was one day we were out just before my check ride and the winds were howling. We were having a competition on quality of landing. I was just about to touch down and the plane dropped the last foot. He said "Nice Landing!" joking ofcourse. That is when the controller came on and told us there were wind shears of 20-25 knots. We called it a day after that. But I feel very confident flying in high winds and bad weather because of his training and his need to build hours. Most of the other instructors wouldn't take their students out in bad weather. How are the going to learn to fly in this stuff if they don't get any training? The were many choices for instructors and I felt lucky to get the one I did.

I was very fortunate. Due to the busy schedule at the flight school I had three different instructors during my PPL training. Each had their strong points and it really allowed me to see how each approached the different issues. I'm also very lucky that while each instructor was building time for the airlines they weren't skipping through. With the different personalities I was more comfortable with some than others but in the end I realize the gentlemen that were the hardest on me made me a safer pilot.

As stressful and serious as flying is during this period I would be very choosey in finding and instructor. I?m pretty self dependant so I would not have hesitated to replace any of them if I thought they weren?t properly doing their job.

I learned to fly at MarcAir at 25F and would recommend them to everyone.

Did someone say crosswinds?

TSwezey said:

I had a young, fresh out of school ATP wannabe ... Crosswinds, rain, high winds just as long as it was VFR...

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MY guy did something similar. The second flight of training it was the middle of February in the Bay area, which meant the bad flying season had been there for a month - low clouds, turbulence, gusty mountain winds, poor visibility. But he was running low on cash and he needed to get me up so he could get paid.

There we were circling west of the mountains near Hayward trying to climb against the downdrafts getting thrown all over the place by the turbulence in our pathetic little Skipper. And I was still trying to learn how to fly straight and level (!) After an hour of not making progress against the downdrafts he turned us back.

Then, there was the trip out to Tracy with winds gusting so hard they nearly turned the plane over when we stopped for refueling.

What did I learn? Well, I got used to flying in wind. Probably too complacent. It led to my falling out with the second instructor. One day I showed up ready to go out for solo practice with the wind 15 knots gusting to 20+. His restrictions on my endorsement were 15 knots and I made the mistake of forgetting that. He stopped me at the door wanting to know if I really thought it was safe to fly in this weather. I said that I had flown in worse and didn't see a problem. That was not the right answer it seems. I got a lecture and then later an email advising me to read various FAA articles about wind and aeronautical decisionmaking. And a few days later, he let me know I should find another CFI.

I don't know if I agree with his decision but I do agree with his wanting to do everything possible to keep things safe for me. Now having a little bit more experience flying (200 hours) I just won't fly in gusty winds. Just no good reason for me to do so at this point. I am not a commercial pilot on any sort of schedule - I am out for fun. If I need to learn how to fly in bad conditions, I will creep up on it over time with experience and additional training rather than go out and challenge the forces of nature before I have to.

Just my two cents again

John Babrick

N777XV (someday)

OldAndBold said:

I don't know if I agree with his decision but I do agree with his wanting to do everything possible to keep things safe for me. Now having a little bit more experience flying (200 hours) I just won't fly in gusty winds. Just no good reason for me to do so at this point. I am not a commercial pilot on any sort of schedule - I am out for fun. If I need to learn how to fly in bad conditions, I will creep up on it over time with experience and additional training rather than go out and challenge the forces of nature before I have to.

Click to expand...

I agree about not going out and flying in gusty crosswind conditions. I cancelled my flight to see the space shuttle lift off because the winds were suppose to be blowing 20-30 knots on the day I was suppose to leave Merrit Island. It would have been fine if there were multiple runways but this wind was a direct crosswind and the Tiger I fly is not capable of flying in a crosswind that strong. What concerns me is that fact that some students never learn how to fly in heavy winds! They get their PPL and by some twist of fate (weather is dynamic) they get caught in heavy winds and don't know how to handle it. I also believe all pilots should fly in IMC for a few hours.

my additional two cents

I haven't learned how to use the quote part yet.

Wind & Flight Instructors

Reading all the post on flight instructors has been very entertaining. It got me thinking about my flight instructor & the more I fly the more respect I have for him. 1988, I was fresh out of college with my first real world job & a little money. I wanted to fly. I had taken my ground school & test at Oklahoma State University to get enough hours to graduate. I alway knew I wanted to fly so as soon as work slowed down I went to the Dodge City, Kansas airport to see about lessons. The flight instructor for the FBO on the field shocked me a little, HE WAS AN OLD MAN. However, He took time to explain the requirements of getting a ppl & on Dec 3, 1988 I took my first lesson. IT WAS ALSO MY FIRST TIME IN A SMALL PLANE. Jim Bock was very interesting to fly with. He was a B-24 pilot in WW2 so student mistakes did not scare him. He wanted you to learn every aspect of flying & would challenge you to be a better pilot.
Wind did not scare him. His theory was Dodge City has an avg wind speed of 18kts, you better learn to deal with it. I learned to land 152 cessnas in a 30kt wind. Also, I was taught spin recovery & practiced power on & off stalls over & over. I was one of the last students he had as he got cancer & passed away a few years later, but I am thankfull I had a REAL TEACHER, not just an instructor.

Shannon Evans
Montezuma, KS
RV-9a plans on table

Musical CFIs

I went through 4 CFIs on my way to PPL. Some good, some bad ,but I was fortunate enough to have a great instructor in that mix.

First instructor

My first flight instructor was Don Taylor, He is a long time crop duster pilot with over 20,000 take-off?s and landings. Some of the things he gave me are.

Keep the longitudinal axis line up with direction flight at all times.
Look out and make the picture right.
Never stop flying the aircraft

After 15hrs of flight training Don hadn?t solo me off. He explained that we needed to do some cross ? wind landings before he would solo me. The next day we met at Sutter County airport where I had done all my training. The wind blowing directly across the runway at 4 knots. I was terrified Don had me do the take off and stay in the pattern. Don demonstrated the correct method for a cross wind landing. He had me on the controls the next time around. Then he expected me to do it! The first time I did everything correct, crab into the wind down final, straighten it out before touch down and lower a wing into the wind, land on one wheel, keep it straight with the rudder and roll out on the runway. Well everything was fine until the rollout part. I relaxed my feet on the rudders and we went left, right, left as I was trying to catch up with the airplane. After we stopped I asked Don why he didn?t help. He said I had it under control. The next 4 or 5 landings that day were much improved. I soloed the next day with confidence that I could handle a light cross-wind.
My first 25 hrs were in a 1946 Stinson 108-1 that I had restored. N8230K

I think learning to fly when the wind is blowing is one of the major challenges pilots should embrace and face head on. I'm not talking about going out in 30 knot winds and tempting fate, but I'm continually amazed at the number of pilots who won't fly if the wind is over 10 knots. I believe that these are the pilots that can get themselves in trouble when the unexpected happens and they find themselves in a situation that they are ill equiped to handle. Just sit out on the runway at Airventure some day when a crosswind is blowing, and you'll see firsthand what I mean. God knows I've botched my share of Oshkosh landings, so I'm no better than anyone else but some of the crosswind techniques I've seen are rather scary.

I believe you are much better off to get yourself an instructor, and look for a day when you can find a runway with a 15 knot direct crosswind. Go beat up the FBO's trainer and gain some confidence that you can handle the situation. I never got a lot of crosswind training when I was after my PPL. When I received my tailwheel endorsement, my instructor took me out on such a day and told me "I'm not signing you off until you can make 6 consecutive takeoffs and landings without me touching the controls." Good thing because a year later when flying to Arizona, I was forced to land at Show Low with about a 38 knot crosswind component. It wasn't pretty but I didn't bend anything either.

No one likes to fly a lot when it is bumpy and windy. But these airplanes are such wonderful performers, you can usually climb out of the stuff fairly quickly. As others have said (and I've been to Dodge City and it was windy as all get out) in some places the wind almost never dies down.

Definitely don't go fly in the wind if you are not prepared for it. When to go flying is a personal decision and I would never question another pilot's decision to not go. I've just found that I can enjoy the utility of my airplane on more days with the proper training. I like the challenge but that's just me.

instructors

I flew with an Old timer at the old Grand Prairie Texas airport in 1965 who had only 5 digits in his CFI number. Cfi 78872 Mr P D Ormand. He checked me out in a J-5 cub and in 15 minutes he taught me 6 things I never knew before, and when Im on final even today I think of him as a mantra and what he taught me landing that cub. I should have flown more with thim but I got hooked up with Goble aviation at Redbird airport after that and got my PPL in a Cessna 140. A bad experience with an instructor will leave you searching for answers, but a good experience with a great instructor will leave you as a better and wiser pilot. JMO

You-all are a bunch of wimps

There was a time when instructors never complimented a student (unless you were a Bob Hoover).

Typical debriefing after a bad day in the T-28: "When are you going to learn to do it the way I showed you.....#%*&!!.....GRRRRR!" Wham!, as he slammed his fist on the debriefing table to make a point. Not all debriefings were like that, but if you screwed up once too often it was so.

This was part of a larger show which became apparent later - like how badly do you want to become a military pilot? Some couldn't take it and SIE'd (self intitiated elimination). Some wanted it so bad, the only way we would leave was dead in a box or kicked out.

Like the statistics Dr. Milt quoted re med school in a different thread, the guys who made it through 18+ months of flight school were definitely 1 percenters. The preselection process sometimes involved 200 applicants of which only 2 or 3 were assigned to a class. Then it was open season hazing by upper classmen in preflight school. And once you arrived at a flight school it was the nasty flight instructors. One third of our class did not complete the course for one reason or another.

(However when it was over everyone became quite friendly. It was a game. How badly do you want to be here and can you take the pressure.)

That's not to say civilian flight instruction today is not good. In fact, it is better and more effective with emphasis on the positive and with constructive criticism. The negative stuff is history, or should be. A flight instructor who insults a student in GA is an idiot and should be dropped.

The real problem, it has been stated here over and over, is finding an instructor who is interested in his student's learning and has been around the block a few times with regard to experience. The unfortunate circumstance of GA flight instruction is that it is the bottom of the pecking order for pay and working conditions. Good flight instructors are SAINTS in that many of them could have gone on to better things but decided to do what they do because they love it.

Find such a guy and you will have a good chance of not killing yourself when you are turned loose.

Also, never forget, the learning process never ends. It may have been a near perfect flight but somewhere you screwed up just a little.
Work on those little things and you will get so good, you can hardly stand yourself. Critical self evaluation is an important part of staying alive in this business.

dd

I think one advantage that I had learning to fly in Texas is that there seems to be wind almost every day. When I soloed it was at Denton (DTO). The next day I soloed at 52F and the winds were 19 gusting to 25. It was down the runway and I didn't have any problems. I remember one day with the instructor we spent the entire lesson doing touch and goes at Decature with a 12 knot cross wind. That was work but I'm glad we did it because although I respect wind and recognize the limits I am comforatable flying in some wind.

Two of my instructors were very strict and while it made training sessions a little more stressful they pounded it into me reinforcing the seriousness of training.

Long story

All this talk of wind reminds me of a story of my own. It?s a slooooow day in the office, so I?ll jump in with both feet. I keep this one filed under the ?winds? and ?lessons learned? categories.

I had just recently received my tailwheel endorsement and promptly purchased a Citabria, when after about two weeks of ownership I flew down to Paso Robles for an aerobatic competition. After spending 3 long days in the hot summer sun, I was looking forward to heading home. I awoke early Sunday morning to a crystal clear sky with zero wind, packed the airplane and topped off the tanks for the short 1-1/2 ? 2 hr flight home. I chose not to call for a weather briefing because it was June in central California, where the weather is pretty much the same for several months on end. I?ve flown in it (the summer weather) many times, I knew what to expect, or so I thought.

I departed and was climbing when I started feeling a little chop while passing through 2500?, but nothing out of the norm. As I climbed the bumps continued to get worse, but they were still nothing to be too concerned about. I leveled off, set up for cruise then noticed that the DME was registering what I considered to be a pathetic groundspeed. I had a headwind, oh well. I had full fuel and not much ground to cover so it wasn?t a big deal. As I proceeded north the bumps got worse, and worse, and worse again. I watched as my groundspeed slowed to below driving (highway) speed. I experimented and found the turbulence and winds lessened as I descended, so I reduced my altitude and gained a few knots. As I continued to get closer to home the wind and bumps continued to get worse, and worse still. Oh boy, what was I in for?

I dialed in the ATIS/AWOS of local airports along the route, and I was surprised to hear some of the wind numbers I was hearing, all 20s gusting higher. Hmmm, it was 0 on the ground just an hour or so ago. After what felt like an eternity I was about 15nm south of San Jose and tuned in the tower at Reid-Hillview to listen to what was going on there. I was surprised to hear the tower warning pilots of extreme turbulence above X-thousand feet and I heard someone tell the tower they were calling it quits as it was just ?too rough out there? and that they were happy to be down in one piece. I think this is when I started sweating a little.

I crossed over the ridge line to the east of San Jose and the plane got tossed 90-degrees on its side, ok now I was sweating a bit more. I dialed in the ATIS at Livermore and winds were 18-25 gusting to 30 AND 90-degrees off both runways! Gulp! I headed over the next set of hills on my way to my temporary hangar at Byron and tuned in Tracy?s AWOS? 25-30 gusting to 35 (Tracy is only 10 miles of so from Byron). I was well beyond a light sweat now. I was getting tossed around like a child?s toy and I now had a death-grip on the stick. I overflew the Byron airport, where my wife was waiting to pick me up, and found the windsock pegged horizontal and 45-degrees off both runways (just my luck). Remember, I had only had my tailwheel endorsement for a few months and I had just purchased the airplane 2 weeks prior. I had some crosswind experience, but nothing extreme. I was really starting to regret my decision to not call for the weather. I started thinking about my options, but where was I going to go? The wind was everywhere, was getting worse, and I had burned a lot of fuel fighting it. I decided the best course of action was for me to attempt a landing, and if the set-up didn?t go good, I would reevaluate.

I circled around and joined the downwind leg fighting the wind the entire way. On my turn to final I got lucky and the wind seemed to align with the runway much better (only 25-degrees off now), but the sock was still pegged. I came over the fence working the throttle and the rudders, sweat?n like a pig, butt cheeks clenched tightly (more than you needed to know, but true). As I came over the numbers, <BAM!> a huge gust hit me, banking the airplane about 45-degrees to the left. The next few moments are a blur, but the next thing I remember I was on the ground and fighting to taxi off the runway. My wife, who had been watching all of this from the airport office, came running around a row of parked airplanes. I remember seeing this astonished look on her face as she rounded the corner of the last plane and saw me taxiing in. The winds were so bad I couldn?t even taxi (I couldn?t turn the airplane), I had to shut-down, get out, and using all our strength we pulled it to the hangar. Once the hangar doors were shut, I remember the feeling of total exhaustion as all the tension and anxiety left my body. It had taken 3-1/2 hours for a flight that would normally take just under 2, but I was so happy to be on the ground. I asked my wife what the look on the ramp was for. She said that when she saw the airplane bank so sharply so close to the ground she thought I was a goner and ran to pull me from the wreckage. She then said that she was completely suprized to see me and the plane in one piece. She still tells the story of ?The time I almost saw him crash? to our friends.

A few days later I ran into a few friends who had also flown back that day. Everyone was talking about how bad it was and how they never want to fly in conditions like that again. It took one guy 8 attempts to get it on the ground, but he got it done.

Sorry for the length, this turned out longer than I expected.

Brad, it wasn't too long..just right...another one of those good "Never Again" stories....

These are the kinds of experiences that make you a pilot, versus simply an airplane driver. You'll never look at a "simple easy flight" the same way again.

My friends still refer to our ski trip episode as "The Buddy Holly Flight", they never miss a chance to give me noise about that one....

I miss California flying...

I miss flying in Cali. I know all of the places you were writing about! And the wind.

We had a house on the west side of Tracy. Nothing between us and the mountains five miles away but an open field. For months at a time the wind would just howl all day and night long.

Would the winds have been any better on the other side of the mountains down towards the bay, like Palo Alto or Hayward???

OldAndBold said:

Would the winds have been any better on the other side of the mountains down towards the bay, like Palo Alto or Hayward???

Click to expand...

Possibly. Tracy and Byron get so much wind from the venturi effect through the delta and around the back (east) side of Mt. Diablo. When I was hangared in Byron I can remember leaving my house in Livermore on a what I thought were very calm days only to have the door of the car ripped from my hand by the howling wind when I arrived at the Byron Airport. They are building houses out there (near the Byron airport) like crazy but I don't know how people can stand the wind.