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Tank 'Leak' at Rivets

ZU-RVZ

Member
We have an RV-9A, built from QB kit.

She now has 100hrs TT.

At around 60 hours we noted the paint 'bubbling' around some of the rivets on both wings, only on the upper surface, and only over the tanks.

There is no evidence of fuel leak except that the paint has bubbled on 14 rivets on the left hand wing and 8 on the right hand wing.

Van's technical department's answer was "We've seen this once or twice before and don't know what the cause is. Sorry we can't help you."

tank_rivets_416.jpg
 
There was a thread on this a few months back.....I am not sure we came to any conclusions, but I remember lots of interesting discussion and information!
 
Me too!

Have 4 on the right tank doing the same thing. Is yours a QB? Mine is and I understand this problem has been reported by others. Vans wanted me to do something, but I have yet to try it. Trying to get to 100hrs and replace a flap motor and 10 other upgrades.
 
Well I actually have some new information on this, Old thread here :

I recently redid (pulled tanks off to fix problem and repaint) my tanks with the expectation of finding some kind of pro seal problem at the rivets. I had a technical rep from Sikkens (paint manufacturer) fly into Atlanta and look at the problem first hand. He found something I had not considered. Ill build up with the story.

When painting my plane, I always sanded between coats because of the length of time between primer and base coat. Manufacturer says more than 24hours requires sanding before shootiing base color coat. On the primer, often times the sanding would bust through the primer and expose the rivet. At first I did not care about that but when I shot my first color coat with my transparent pearl color, the exposed rivet was obvious and needed to have the primer on it to cover it. So I stripped the color coat off and tried again.

Again when sanding I would bust through a rivet here and there. After busting through I would come back with a short burst of primer on the exposed rivet head to cover it up so as not to be seen when the color coat was laid. I did this with a bunch of rivets and never went back to scuff those ones before putting on the color coat. What that meant was that when shooting the color coat, there was no mechanical bond between the primer and the color on those rivets where I shot the tiny burst of primer to cover up the rivet head. This is clearly evident when you use a razor blade to peal back the layers. You can see where the baby smooth primer spot shot I put on and did not sand would easily allow the base color coat to lift up. Every place else, which is 99% of the rest of the tank, you could not seperate the color from the primer which meant that the mechanical bond was good. So that does explain why the color lifted. But it does not explain why it onnly did it on the top of the wing tanks cause I have lots of these rivets on the plane where I busted through the primer on sandinging and went back with a shot of primer to cover it up and did not sand it before color coat. So here is what the experienced paint tech said.

Tanks vent. As the tank develops some pressure and the fuel in the vent line has not purged out, like sitting out in the sun, the tank can develop ~1psi. Actually a little less. Molecules of fuel vapor penetrate the proseal and push up on the primer. PRimer sticks and it pushes to the base coat. If the mechanical bond is not good, it will push the coat up. If it is good it will push up though each layer until it hits air. So his conclusion was that at every bubble, the spot shot of primer that I did not sand before the color coat allowed a bubble.

Well it all made sense. But just to be sure I would NOT have to remove the tanks and paint again, he recommended that I put down a layer of epoxy primer down before the Sikkens primer to act as a barrier coat for the molecules. So I did that. Time will tell if this works or not.

As another note, I had about 20 rivets per tank bubbling. I pressure tested the tanks to 5psi to check for leaks. Thats right 5! Not one rivet leaked and it held that pressure overnight. So the tank was sealed and not leaking air I know that much. If it bubbles again, Im going to commit suicide.

Thats my update.
 
Ironflight said:
There was a thread on this a few months back.....I am not sure we came to any conclusions, but I remember lots of interesting discussion and information!

I started that thread and never received enough information to determine what causes the blisters. I have many......so far they do not leak.

Kahuna may have hit on something.

dd
 
I pin pricked each bubble to allow the air to escape. They seem to be under control. ie the paint is slightly deformed but not a bubble anymore. I guess this is just a short term fix.
 
Pin Pricked Also!

I also pricked the bubbles as they started to form. Ihave not had any more problems with those, but I guess time will tell!
 
Interesting factoid...

Kahuna said:
.......
Well it all made sense. But just to be sure I would NOT have to remove the tanks and paint again, he recommended that I put down a layer of epoxy primer down before the Sikkens primer to act as a barrier coat for the molecules. So I did that. Time will tell if this works or not.
................
Interesting that the Sikkens primer is not an epoxy.

I think that I would want an epoxy as a first layer on my plane whatever paint system was in use.... which is the case with most modern aircraft paint systems.

Did you have a choice of primers with the Sikkens system?

Were some primers epoxies and some not?

Was this a auto paint system?

gil in Tucson
 
Paint bubbles on rivets

I have not painted my RV4 yet but had a similar experience on my aluminum speed boat. I repaired a damaged area (wife rammed the dock) on the boat by splicing in a new section. The splice was secured using a doubler plate behind. I used flush rivets from my RV4 project to fasten the whole assembly, just like our airplanes. Before painting with DP primer, I used PPG DX 533 aluminum cleaner. The paint supplier was sure that I did not allow enough time for the DX 533 to fully evaporate around the rivets. He claims this caused a bonding failure and resulting bubbles. My bubbles only show up when the sun beats down on the boat in the summer. Maybe your last solvent wipe-down was not quite evaporated before the primer went on? Now, when I solvent wipe a riveted area for painting, I hit it hard with compressed air to clear any solvent out of the cracks around the rivets. I believe the paint supplier was correct in his diagnosis of my particular paint bubble problem.
Sincerely, Brian Vickers, RV4-finishing
 
No alodine?

Brian Vickers said:
I have not painted my RV4 yet but had a similar experience on my aluminum speed boat. I repaired a damaged area (wife rammed the dock) on the boat by splicing in a new section. The splice was secured using a doubler plate behind. I used flush rivets from my RV4 project to fasten the whole assembly, just like our airplanes. Before painting with DP primer, I used PPG DX 533 aluminum cleaner. The paint supplier was sure that I did not allow enough time for the DX 533 to fully evaporate around the rivets. He claims this caused a bonding failure and resulting bubbles. My bubbles only show up when the sun beats down on the boat in the summer. Maybe your last solvent wipe-down was not quite evaporated before the primer went on? Now, when I solvent wipe a riveted area for painting, I hit it hard with compressed air to clear any solvent out of the cracks around the rivets. I believe the paint supplier was correct in his diagnosis of my particular paint bubble problem.
Sincerely, Brian Vickers, RV4-finishing

Brian... one of the reasons for the alodine step after acid etch (DX 533 is an acid, isn't it?) is to neutralize the acid....

[edit: confirmed, it is an acid etch/cleaner]

That's one of it's purposes in the MIL-Spec painting process..

Even PPG recommends a conversion coating (aka. alodine) for aluminum.

http://www.ppg.com/refinishftpsite/docs/p-226_DXMetalTreatment.pdf

gil in Tucson
 
Last edited:
Acid

Gil,
Yes, DX 533 has phosphoric acid. I'm not sure of the amount in the blend of other contents (butoxy ethanol, ammonium bifuoride and polyethylene glycol octylphenyl ether). I don't use DX 533 any more and have ammended my paint and prep process. Good point though....
 
az_gila said:
Interesting that the Sikkens primer is not an epoxy.

I think that I would want an epoxy as a first layer on my plane whatever paint system was in use.... which is the case with most modern aircraft paint systems.

Did you have a choice of primers with the Sikkens system?

Were some primers epoxies and some not?

Was this a auto paint system?

gil in Tucson

Sikkens makes only one primer for their system.
This is an auto based system. base coat / clear coat .
 
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