Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
EngineAir
- Thread starter fco
- Start date
This might shed some light: http://www.epi-eng.com/Prop-SudnStop.htm
Rag in the intercooler caused lots of damage. Good piloting prevented serious injury. Lancairs are known for their high sink rates and many have been injured or worse in forced landings with them.
Rag in the intercooler caused lots of damage. Good piloting prevented serious injury. Lancairs are known for their high sink rates and many have been injured or worse in forced landings with them.
Thumbs up for the Pilot.
But what I'm trying to find out is whether this engine is still being developped or not. If this project is dead (hopefully not), I don't think it did because of this accident due to a forgotten paper towel ingestion.
I welcome every bit of information though.
[Edited] whoops just noticed this was the engine's website
Thanks
But what I'm trying to find out is whether this engine is still being developped or not. If this project is dead (hopefully not), I don't think it did because of this accident due to a forgotten paper towel ingestion.
I welcome every bit of information though.
[Edited] whoops just noticed this was the engine's website
Thanks
Last edited:
I phoned their number in SC. It was disconnected. Appears they may be toast. Another to add to the long list.
Too bad, it was cool.
On the bright side, I received some updates on a V8 powered Wheeler Express and an SVX powered Glassair recently which seem to be working very well. Are you planning another engine type for an RV?
Too bad, it was cool.
On the bright side, I received some updates on a V8 powered Wheeler Express and an SVX powered Glassair recently which seem to be working very well. Are you planning another engine type for an RV?
Last edited:
I am planning to set up an aircraft partnership. It may be an experimental or a certified one.
All options are still open and if we go experimental I personally like fast babes as the Lancairs and the RVs.
A good sign regarding the EPI engine is that the bottom of at the home page you can see Copyright ? EPI, Inc. 2006
All options are still open and if we go experimental I personally like fast babes as the Lancairs and the RVs.
A good sign regarding the EPI engine is that the bottom of at the home page you can see Copyright ? EPI, Inc. 2006
Last edited:
Although I've never had dealings with EPI, they are the only V8 redrive maker who has been around a while and appears to have top notch engineering behind their projects. Their tech articles are top notch, no BS. I don't imagine they are cheap but it sure looks like nice stuff. EPI was doing the drives for EngineAir and some other V8 projects.
OK, that was NOT EngineAir website
I just received an email telling me that this guys are not around anymore
I also read the following: a Lycoming IO-360 with 12:1
compression pistons, re-cut timing gears, dual electronic ignition, and other
minor mods will propel a 360 to 250+ knots burning about 12GPH @ 14,000 ft.
Any clue on who does those Lycoming conversions?
I just received an email telling me that this guys are not around anymore
I also read the following: a Lycoming IO-360 with 12:1
compression pistons, re-cut timing gears, dual electronic ignition, and other
minor mods will propel a 360 to 250+ knots burning about 12GPH @ 14,000 ft.
Any clue on who does those Lycoming conversions?
Last edited:
Lycoming IO-360 w/12:1 Pistons
I'm assuming you're talking about the 200 hp angle-head 360.
The first question I have is how long would you expect this engine to last?Not trying to be nasty or anything, but realistically you're talking about a one race engine. And if your ignition timing isn't just right, you're in major trouble. That thing would be a time bomb! Tick, tick, tick.
The IO-390 with stock compression is rated at 210, and we've seen it do as high as 219 on our dyno, so I think there is potential to increase the compression and get some pretty good hp numbers.
I wouldn't even attempt to change the stroke or cam timing. Even in the most capable hands, a stroked engine is "difficult" and our experiments with cam timing years ago yielded no improved performance.
I'm assuming you're talking about the 200 hp angle-head 360.
The first question I have is how long would you expect this engine to last?Not trying to be nasty or anything, but realistically you're talking about a one race engine. And if your ignition timing isn't just right, you're in major trouble. That thing would be a time bomb! Tick, tick, tick.
The IO-390 with stock compression is rated at 210, and we've seen it do as high as 219 on our dyno, so I think there is potential to increase the compression and get some pretty good hp numbers.
I wouldn't even attempt to change the stroke or cam timing. Even in the most capable hands, a stroked engine is "difficult" and our experiments with cam timing years ago yielded no improved performance.
As you can see I'm a complete newbye in this field.
I just visited your great website and learned about the Eggenfellner engine. The 210 turborcharged version looks like a good option for the kind of performance I'm after. Only good comments posted by customers on the designer's site.
I'm going to go through the related posts in this forum to find out more.
I just visited your great website and learned about the Eggenfellner engine. The 210 turborcharged version looks like a good option for the kind of performance I'm after. Only good comments posted by customers on the designer's site.
I'm going to go through the related posts in this forum to find out more.
William Slaughter
Well Known Member
V8 Wheeler Express
Hey Ross, would that happen to be Buddy Warren's Wheeler Express?
Hey Ross, would that happen to be Buddy Warren's Wheeler Express?
fco said:
I think the EZ30 Eggenfellner turbo might be a bit heavy compared to an IO-360 Lycoming but could be made to work. As far as I know, they don't have an engine mount setup for the Lancair at this time. What Lancair airframe are you working with? The IO-360 is not an option in the IV. The IV and IV-P require engines up in the 300-400hp range. The Subarus are not well suited up here.
There are some LS-2 and LS-7 conversions being worked on now by several companies if you are interested.
Last edited:
William Slaughter
Well Known Member
A bit, if we're in fact talking about the same plane. I've known Buddy for quite a few years, and recently reconnected with him at the airport. His Express is equipped with an original pattern small block Chevy and a redrive of his own design and fabrication. It is extremely compact and lightweight. Buddy is truly a master machinist, and I would certainly want one of his units if I were in the market for a reduction drive. I believe he has a web site concerning the unit, but I don't have the URL here at work. I'll see if I can find it tonight at home.rv6ejguy said:
rv6ejguy,
One of the candidates would be the ES. I like the Idea of using automotive fuel. Where I am, auto fuel is around $4.80/gal and 100LL around $8.15/gal for non commercial operators.
On top of that, Egg claims that maintenance cost will be much lower.
+ allegedly as smooth as silk
One of the candidates would be the ES. I like the Idea of using automotive fuel. Where I am, auto fuel is around $4.80/gal and 100LL around $8.15/gal
for non commercial operators.On top of that, Egg claims that maintenance cost will be much lower.
+ allegedly as smooth as silk
The Subes are smooth as silk and they could be installed in the ES. If you are a fabricator type and can design and build a mount, the EZ30 could be installed but it is still short on hp and possibly too light without extending the nose. This is a LOT of work so be prepared to spend a lot of time on it. Many other system design changes must be done as well.
I was thinking of the 220HP turbo H6, I don't know if we're talking about the same engine here. The complete instalation is supposed (AFAIK) to be heavier than the equivalent Lyconentals. According to the Egg site they are releasing a new 220HP turbo engine called the E6 in 2007.
Too bad there isn't a FWF kit for the ES. Anyway I have already contacted a builder assistance company.
Too bad there isn't a FWF kit for the ES. Anyway I have already contacted a builder assistance company.
The turbo H6 is undergoing flight testing now in Florida. Weight wise, the package is in between the typical 4 and 6 cylinder Lyconentals so adjustments must be made in ballast or engine mounts depending on the airframe. The ES is really designed around the 300-350hp Conti so this Sube would be lighter and way short on power.
An atmo LS2 V8 engine would be closer to the hp and weight of the 550 Conti. Vesta and Robinson are doing work with these.
An atmo LS2 V8 engine would be closer to the hp and weight of the 550 Conti. Vesta and Robinson are doing work with these.
According to Lancair site
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Not practical
Lycoming engineers designed their engine to go to TBO of say 2000 hours typically at stock HP. Of course flying regularly, with in temps and doing regular oil changes is key to meeting the TBO. I had two Lycs go 2300 hours and where still going strong when I sold the plane.
You should think reliability and low maintenance. Also keep in mind and extra 50 hp is only going to make you go about 15 mph faster. That is going from 200 HP to 250 HP gives you less than 20 MPH difference. Of course forget about gas burn, its going to be huge. The fuel level you talk about is flying at a much lower power setting than 250HP. However yes if all you are going to do is fly real high more power helps. Still there is no free lunch, HP and Speed Cost money.
You can add 10 mph while still using a stock engine by just making the cowl and airframe less draggy. It does not cost gas either and its the gift that keeps giving. Forget super high compression and super machine work. Electronic ignition is a good thing. Some find special coatings in the engine help. These mods do not cost reliability or fuel economy. Roller cam and better exhaust are also other win-win mods.
However any mod you make to make way more HP will effect the engine life, big time.
The biggest stock 4-banger you can get today is the Lycoming IO-390-Z, about 210 HP @ 2,700 RPM and 2000 hour TBO. A new stock 180 HP IO360 is about $21,000. A IO-390-Z is going to be $32,900. 30 HP will cost about $12,000 more and add a lot of extra weight. Most RV's find the (I)O360 (180HP) a nice blend of weight, cost and performance. Keep in mind RV's fly better than 90% of the GA fleet on 160 HP.
Also many 200 HP RV's are not much faster or even as fast as 180HP RV's. Again going from 180HP to 200HP will get you about 7-8 mph. Again drag reduction of the airframe can get you that and more. When you go over 200 MPH with the gear still hanging out it gets harder and harder to go faster and HP required goes up by exponentially by a power of 3. Also the angle valve engine is heavier which changes the W&B, the feel and handling of the plane.
160-180HP is LOTS of POWER for a RV. Unless you are rich and want to win the Cafe Foundation Challenge forget HP. If you want more performance than a RV can give get a Rocket, a Harmon HRII or team Rocket F1. They have a 250-260 HP IO540's.
This is not doubt Dave Anders, California Dentist and perfectionist RV builder who holds the Cafe Foundation CAFE Tri aviation award, beating a harmon Rocket by a wide margin. And yes he has a very pumped up IO360 that is very radical. His RV-4 is also perfection and as aerodynamic as possible with 100's of mods that make it a very clean airframe. I believe "Lycon" in California did it. You can google their site. You will of course spend unbelievable amount of money, X2 or X3? You should also plan on rebuilds or at least tear down and inspections ever couple of 100 hours depending on how hard you run it. This is an extream engine and not for an every day flying. Dave will tell you this. His engine will never make TBO and he has it torn down for safety inspections. That is expensive. He also has his hartzell prop torn down and inspected/rebuilt more frequently than standard.fco said:OK, that was NOT EngineAir website
I just received an email telling me that this guys are not around anymore
I also read the following: a Lycoming IO-360 with 12:1
compression pistons, re-cut timing gears, dual electronic ignition, and other
minor mods will propel a 360 to 250+ knots burning about 12GPH @ 14,000 ft.
Any clue on who does those Lycoming conversions?
Lycoming engineers designed their engine to go to TBO of say 2000 hours typically at stock HP. Of course flying regularly, with in temps and doing regular oil changes is key to meeting the TBO. I had two Lycs go 2300 hours and where still going strong when I sold the plane.
You should think reliability and low maintenance. Also keep in mind and extra 50 hp is only going to make you go about 15 mph faster. That is going from 200 HP to 250 HP gives you less than 20 MPH difference. Of course forget about gas burn, its going to be huge. The fuel level you talk about is flying at a much lower power setting than 250HP. However yes if all you are going to do is fly real high more power helps. Still there is no free lunch, HP and Speed Cost money.
You can add 10 mph while still using a stock engine by just making the cowl and airframe less draggy. It does not cost gas either and its the gift that keeps giving. Forget super high compression and super machine work. Electronic ignition is a good thing. Some find special coatings in the engine help. These mods do not cost reliability or fuel economy. Roller cam and better exhaust are also other win-win mods.
However any mod you make to make way more HP will effect the engine life, big time.
The biggest stock 4-banger you can get today is the Lycoming IO-390-Z, about 210 HP @ 2,700 RPM and 2000 hour TBO. A new stock 180 HP IO360 is about $21,000. A IO-390-Z is going to be $32,900. 30 HP will cost about $12,000 more and add a lot of extra weight. Most RV's find the (I)O360 (180HP) a nice blend of weight, cost and performance. Keep in mind RV's fly better than 90% of the GA fleet on 160 HP.
Also many 200 HP RV's are not much faster or even as fast as 180HP RV's. Again going from 180HP to 200HP will get you about 7-8 mph. Again drag reduction of the airframe can get you that and more. When you go over 200 MPH with the gear still hanging out it gets harder and harder to go faster and HP required goes up by exponentially by a power of 3. Also the angle valve engine is heavier which changes the W&B, the feel and handling of the plane.
160-180HP is LOTS of POWER for a RV. Unless you are rich and want to win the Cafe Foundation Challenge forget HP. If you want more performance than a RV can give get a Rocket, a Harmon HRII or team Rocket F1. They have a 250-260 HP IO540's.
Last edited:
Thanks for all the info. I am realising that the "Lycon" mod and the likes are "race" engines are not at all what I'm after which is reliability for everyday flying.
This is precisely why I am starting to be attracted by the auto conversions, besides the huge fuel savings. Congratulations for your two 2300h Lycos but I keep reading that Lyconentals most often don't make it to their expensive TBOs. On the other hand the Egg overhaul and maintenance appears to be comparatively much more affordable.
And no, I'm definitively not a rich guy. This is why I'm setting up a partnership.
At the same time I'm being offered an ES with a TSIO-550 (390HP). I guess as you say it takes that much HP to get this fixed gear going. Do you have an opinion on this engine?
This is precisely why I am starting to be attracted by the auto conversions, besides the huge fuel savings. Congratulations for your two 2300h Lycos but I keep reading that Lyconentals most often don't make it to their expensive TBOs. On the other hand the Egg overhaul and maintenance appears to be comparatively much more affordable.
And no, I'm definitively not a rich guy. This is why I'm setting up a partnership.
At the same time I'm being offered an ES with a TSIO-550 (390HP). I guess as you say it takes that much HP to get this fixed gear going. Do you have an opinion on this engine?
Last edited:
The TSIO-550 Contis generally appear pretty stout and have been kicking *** in the Sport class for speeds against the big Lycos in the last few years at Reno- until the cut pylon. Hp is exceeding 650 there. The 350hp ones in Lancairs seem to have reasonable core reliability but there have been a couple of big failures on low time engines and a fair number of jug replacements well before TBO- kind of par for the course for turboed big block aircraft engines.
It is still probably the best (easiest) choice for the Lancair but at $60K+... Ouch and an exclusive diet of 100LL in your area might make alternatives quite attractive. You would have to find someone knowledgeable however to fit an LS-2. This is a huge task but the engine is only $5500 brand new. Something to think about and no doubt even with the whole firewall forward cost figured in, it will be much cheaper than the Conti. At overhaul time- just get another new crate motor for $5500.
The turbo Conti 360 would be similar weight to the EZ30 Sube turbo so that is another possibility.
It is still probably the best (easiest) choice for the Lancair but at $60K+... Ouch and an exclusive diet of 100LL in your area might make alternatives quite attractive. You would have to find someone knowledgeable however to fit an LS-2. This is a huge task but the engine is only $5500 brand new. Something to think about and no doubt even with the whole firewall forward cost figured in, it will be much cheaper than the Conti. At overhaul time- just get another new crate motor for $5500.
The turbo Conti 360 would be similar weight to the EZ30 Sube turbo so that is another possibility.
I'd suggest running the engine under a trend monitoring system. Log your temps and pressures in cruise on every flight and graph the results out. Also perform a compression and leakdown test on the cylinders every 100-200 hours and get oil analysis done at every oil change. These steps will often allow you to pick up problems and correct them before they become serious. The overhaul costs of these engines are very high so treat it carefully and inspect often.
Push throttle up slowly, observe CHT, EGT and oil temp limits carefully.
Unfortunately you are stuck burning 100LL so that will be expensive in itself where you are.
Be sure to get some good training on the aircraft unless you are already familiar with high wing loading designs.
If you can afford this turn key solution, I think you will really enjoy it. I'm envious!
Push throttle up slowly, observe CHT, EGT and oil temp limits carefully.
Unfortunately you are stuck burning 100LL so that will be expensive in itself where you are.
Be sure to get some good training on the aircraft unless you are already familiar with high wing loading designs.
If you can afford this turn key solution, I think you will really enjoy it. I'm envious!
Thanks for the advice.
I'm not really sure we could afford it it depends on how many people sign up.
And since it would have to be at least a 14 people partnership some serious indoctrination on both pampering the engine and high wing loading characteristics would be required. Maybe just a dream. We'll see ... I still like the idea of an experimental (RV or Lancair) with an auto conversion. The Lancair though meets the full IFR (some anti-ice apparently available now) and fun flying requirent that I've set.
I'm not really sure we could afford it it depends on how many people sign up.
And since it would have to be at least a 14 people partnership some serious indoctrination on both pampering the engine and high wing loading characteristics would be required. Maybe just a dream. We'll see ... I still like the idea of an experimental (RV or Lancair) with an auto conversion. The Lancair though meets the full IFR (some anti-ice apparently available now) and fun flying requirent that I've set.
If you can raise the octane of auto pump gas through additives to be comparable to 100LL and have the vapor pressure also similar to Avgas, operation should be ok but I'd check with Continental with regards to valve face and valve seat material and hardness to see if they are ok without lead in the fuel. They may just say don't use anything other than Avgas period to be safe.
I'd think that any common and legal octane boosters would increase the price of treated auto fuel past that of 100LL. The vapor pressure of Avgas is very important to flying at high altitudes (turbocharged engine) on hot days without fears of vapor lock. Inexpensive kits are available to test fuels if you decide to go that route. David Aviator might be able to steer you in the right direction there.
I'd think that any common and legal octane boosters would increase the price of treated auto fuel past that of 100LL. The vapor pressure of Avgas is very important to flying at high altitudes (turbocharged engine) on hot days without fears of vapor lock. Inexpensive kits are available to test fuels if you decide to go that route. David Aviator might be able to steer you in the right direction there.
