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RV-12 Quick Build Kit

JerryG150

JerryG150

Well Known Member
Having just earned my Sport Pilot Certificate on June 28, 2006, I'm starting to shop around for a plane of my own. The RV12 and Cessna Sport look like great possibilities. Both require a waiting period unfortunately. If I purchase an RV12 it would have to be a Quick Build Kit. If RV12's are delivered the summer of 2007, how much longer to wait for a Quick Build Kit? My friend built an RV9A from a standard kit in 24 months and will complete his RV7A Quick Build in 12 months. Time and simplicity would be a factor for me. Anyone have an idea of the cost of a RV12 Quick Build? Van's RV12 video of his first flight was a powerful incentive to wait for the 12! Trying to figure spread between RV12 Quick build and a factory complete Cessna Sport which should be "well south of $100,000.00" Way too many variables as of today I guess.
 
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Best guess for the RV-12 QB is 90-95% cost of the RV-9A QB.

Only savings will be in the new Rotax 912ULS cost vs a new O-320 and in the time to build which should be 800-1000hrs. Avionics, paint and interior are a wash as this can be an ego thing! Best guess for a well equipped xtry VFR capable ship should be between $45-55K. Not much cheaper than a comparable RV-9A. IMHO the only difference will be in operating costs and utility where the RV-12 will win but just barely. Again really depends on the missions you are planning to accomplish.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the RV-12 and the RANS S-19. Both great new concepts/toys for me to play with.

LOL

:D
 
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A long time ago (as RV-12 was introduced) I've been trying to understand how you are guessing the price for it. It will be a bit smaller and therefore it doesn't use as much metal as RV-9. However, to determine how much less metal is used, I would use the empty weight difference. IMHO that might get close to the price difference. I assume that the work ain't much and aluminium price is therefore determinative.

However, who cares about the price -- if you want RV-12, what difference does the price make? If you want get another brand plane, just go ahead!
 
JerryG150 said:
If I purchase an RV12 it would have to be a Quick Build Kit. If RV12's are delivered the summer of 2007, how much longer to wait for a Quick Build Kit?
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I really don?t see how an RV12 will be substantially cheaper than the RV7 kit and expect the prices to be in the same price as an RV7. If offered today at $18K it would be a good price for a kit made by one of the best shops in the kit airplane world.

The QB, if ever offered, should be cheaper because of the gas fuel tanks are missing and the pulled rivet construction requires a lot less man hours (no dimpling or driving of rivets). :D

If the kit is pre-punched I don?t really see the need for a QB because the most difficult thing in building is making parts and aligning parts for drilling, specially ribs to skins. Never mind the actually riveting which takes hours and a partner to do. A pre-punched wing kit eliminates a lot of the measuring, checking, and partnering. There are also no fuel tanks to deal with ;)

My guess is that making both wings will take you as long as it takes to finish the empennage kit of an RV7. A pneumatic rivet puller makes quick work of any rivet pulling job. It took me about 6 weeks to build my 23.5 feet wing of my tornado an that involved a bit of fabrication, countless measurements, and skin cutting. If the RV12 wing is provided like the wing of the RV7 it should take but a few weeks to have them wings finished.

If anything, the fuselage looks like it will take longer to make. From the pictures it looks as cumbersome as the RV7 fuselage sans the solid rivets. Sure a QB canoe would save some time, maybe 100 hours but do not underestimate how much time is saved by the pre-punched and pre-cut kits. They make it an assembly process, especially when using pulled rivets. I?d say a good 35% to 50% of the time spent on a regular RV build is spent dimpling, countersinking, and driving rivets with a partner. One could eliminate most of that time with pulled rivets and a $50 pneumatic rivet puller. With Van's pre-punched technology it should take about 800 hours for a simple RV12 build.

Jos? M. Borja
Elk Mound, WI
 
pricing

material cost is the least expensive component in the pricing concept. Actually, costs have little relevence to pricing at all.

'Value' pricing is most prevelent. Vans will charge what the market will bear - not a price based upon 'costs'.

We see that in engine pricing all the time.

John
 
Deuskid said:
material cost is the least expensive component in the pricing concept. Actually, costs have little relevence to pricing at all.

'Value' pricing is most prevelent. Vans will charge what the market will bear - not a price based upon 'costs'.

We see that in engine pricing all the time.

John
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You got that right. Titan changed the price for their T-51 Mustang P51 scale replica from $30K to $50K. The demand for the kit exceeded their expectations but that's more of a special case than the norm. The increase in price did include more fabrication.

I doubt Vans would price the RV12 above a 7 unless a high degree of fabrication is provided so at least we know what the ceiling price will be. If the plane performs well it will ousell the rest of the fleet by a good margin. Why? because there are many of us outhere that want a rugged plane with STOL capabilites able to be operated safely by the average pilot from 1000 grass strips with ROCs in the 1000+ FPM and capable of a solid 120MPH cruise (5000RPM on the 912S). Our goal is not Knots at 10000 feet, IFR, or fancy panels but inexpensive ownership of a capable stout bird that can do the local and not so local flyin circuit on the cheap.

In the meantime I bought an unfinished Sonex kit to thinker with while I wait for the RV12 numbers to come out. I should have it ready for sale by the time the RV12 kits come on the market and raise some money from its sale. So far the RV12 looks good but the numbers will tell the tale. For me being able to operate from 1000 grass strips and land on frozen lakes is more important than 170 knots at 10000 feet. There's nothing to see upthere and I have no places to go. I believe the RV12 will be an improvement over my current airplane only if it can deliver the goods. So far the Empty Weight has me concerned but we shall see. :rolleyes:

Jose Borja
Elk Mound, WI
 
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In talking to Van's at Oshkosh '06, they said the kit would likely be in the same cost range as the other 2-place Van's kits. The time to build will be hugely lower, because of the pop rivets and no need to assemble twice (with all the drilling, deburring, and dimpling that goes with it). Also, much less fiberglass, which takes a long time if you want it to look good.
 
actually

I just spoke to Bruce over at Van's who informed me they want to price the RV-12 as their lowest cost model.
But soon at Fun n Sun they'll be taking orders...
 
Lowest cost model ?

Of the pre punch kits, I have heard wing kits will be for sale April 8 about $1000 less than than current wing kits with the rest to follow soon after.
Van buys there Aluminum on contract, I would think with Cessna building
in China, contracts for Aluminum can only be going up. ("What kind of deal
can we get on a Knock off Cessna through Harbor Freight" As a country ,Will
we ever learn?) I have a 7 kit and have learned from this , I will buy the whole kit in one shot, one shipping fee , first price year.
 
Deuskid said:
'Value' pricing is most prevalent. Vans will charge what the market will bear - not a price based upon 'costs'.
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Very true. Recently NPR interviewed an artist who packaged NYC garbage and sold it. He started this to make a point (that package design is important), but "...the cubes that he initially sold as a $10 gag gift began to be viewed more as art as the prices increased. 'People's perceptions have completely changed,' he says." A fascinating insight into our psychology.
 
otterhunter2 said:
Best guess for the RV-12 QB is 90-95% cost of the RV-9A QB.

Only savings will be in the new Rotax 912ULS cost vs a new O-320 and in the time to build which should be 800-1000hrs. Avionics, paint and interior are a wash as this can be an ego thing! Best guess for a well equipped xtry VFR capable ship should be between $45-55K. Not much cheaper than a comparable RV-9A. IMHO the only difference will be in operating costs and utility where the RV-12 will win but just barely. Again really depends on the missions you are planning to accomplish.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the RV-12 and the RANS S-19. Both great new concepts/toys for me to play with.

LOL

:D
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I'd have to guess 55K would be bottom dollar. The 912ULS is now about the same cost as say an Aerosports O-320 or O-360, about 20 large.
As for the rest of the kit, comparable ones like the S-19 are about 55 total once it's all said and done.

I can't see how they could do it for less than 55 large and make money selling it.....

just my wild guess...

LS
 
RV-12 Quick Build Kit
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This question cracks me up. Didn't Van's quote something like 600 to 800 hours to build a -12?

If those numbers are true, that is less time than it takes to complete any of their other quick builds.
 
InsideOut said:
Lucien, I sure hope you're wrong (fingers crossed...)
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This is a quote from Vans' RV-12 order form:

"Van’s Aircraft, Inc. anticipates timely release of remaining subkits, but cannot guarantee availability dates or prices. We anticipate development times of between 1-6 months for subkits. We estimate full airframe kit prices
around $20,000.00 and engine/propeller/instrument package kit prices between $30,000.00 - $35,000.00."

Sounds like a $60,000-$65,000 plane by the time it is finished.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
This is a quote from Vans' RV-12 order form:

"Van?s Aircraft, Inc. anticipates timely release of remaining subkits, but cannot guarantee availability dates or prices. We anticipate development times of between 1-6 months for subkits. We estimate full airframe kit prices
around $20,000.00 and engine/propeller/instrument package kit prices between $30,000.00 - $35,000.00."

Sounds like a $60,000-$65,000 plane by the time it is finished.
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Sounds about right. Unfortunately, you can just about do a fairly basic RV-8 or 8A quickbuild with O-360 A1A for that and have a whole lot more airplane at the end (tho admittedly with a higher fuel bill).....
An RV-9 or 9A for sure....

I'd pass altogether as that's not a worthwhile bang/buck.

LS
 
Bang for the Buck ... I think so

I, happily :), ordered my RV-12 (wing kit) last night. Yep, the price is a bit more than I had hoped (Rotax 912ULS alone added thousands to the cost, not Van's fault ... maybe George W's?). BUT even if I could get an RV-8A QuickBuild with paint, upholstery and engine for $299.99, it would be totally useless to me because I am a Sport Pilot. I wouldn't legally be able to fly it, just take pictures of it.

As a Sport Pilot my choices are limited. I can't buy a used Cessna 150 or 172 I see advertised all day long for twenty some thousand dollars, not a LSA. I could buy a new ready to fly LSA for $100,000.00 - $135,000.00 .. but the RV-12 kit is about 1/2 that price! If I were a private pilot, I would definitely buy a RV-8A basic for the same price or even less. I would just rather fly it and not just let it sit in my garage.

I'm just happy there is a Sport Pilot Certificate or I would never achieve that "RV grin".:D
 
JerryG150 said:
I, happily :), ordered my RV-12 (wing kit) last night. Yep, the price is a bit more than I had hoped (Rotax 912ULS alone added thousands to the cost, not Van's fault ... maybe George W's?). BUT
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It's not Van's fault (and GWB neither knows nor cares what the problem is), as most of the cost increase is because of the declining dollar.
It might also be a bit of gouging somewhere in the pipeline between the assembly line and the dealers. I know the margins for our dealers are pretty pitiful compared to the overall price of the engine; I'd be surprised if Vans is making more than 500 bucks off the engine....

As a Sport Pilot my choices are limited. I can't buy a used Cessna 150 or 172 I see advertised all day long for twenty some thousand dollars, not a LSA. I could buy a new ready to fly LSA for $100,000.00 - $135,000.00 .. but the RV-12 kit is about 1/2 that price! If I were a private pilot, I would definitely buy a RV-8A basic for the same price or even less. I would just rather fly it and not just let it sit in my garage.

I'm just happy there is a Sport Pilot Certificate or I would never achieve that "RV grin".:D
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Shame isn't it? I have the same restriction as my medical went to that great Class III Medical gathering in the sky at the ripe old age of 36 so I'm in the same boat.
But the other Vans models are much higher in the overall bang/buck dept. regardless and that's the sad truth of the matter.

But up against the prefab SLSA, the 12 is a zounds better option I will say. More airplane for half the money - in that regard, it's a slam-dunk.

And it really does look like they typical Vans quality plane just from the pictures, and you know Van didn't release it until it was right.

Just too pricey for me is the only drawback. And most of my criticism there isn't the airframe but the engine. I own/fly a 912ULS on on my titan. Good motor, but in the last year or so, finally exceeded what I'd consider a practical cost, IMO.....

LS
 
I can live with this

As a Brit I'm going to have to pay 120% to cover freight and UK taxes. However, it still seems a reasonable deal to me. I do have a concern.

I'm going to have to pay twice over in freight and currency for shipping that engine to the US and back to Europe! I hope it will be possible to split the engine/prop/instruments package.

Cheers...Keith
 
gblwy said:
As a Brit I'm going to have to pay 120% to cover freight and UK taxes. However, it still seems a reasonable deal to me. I do have a concern.

I'm going to have to pay twice over in freight and currency for shipping that engine to the US and back to Europe! I hope it will be possible to split the engine/prop/instruments package.

Cheers...Keith
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Why would you buy the Rotax from Van? I would assume you can get it in Europe for less. True?

--Bill
 
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