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Smokin' hot

vlittle

Well Known Member
In the hot weather (75 to 80F), I've been using my Rocket for quick turn-around operations, with about 1 hour turn-around.

Due to the heat soaked engine, I get high CHT and oil temperatures on takeoff and climb out. Not a real problem, just has to be managed.

The real problem is that my PP alternator shuts down ('trips') on the ground due to over temperature. I can work around this but it's not pretty... Once I get airflow on the takeoff roll, the alternator will stay on line And the voltage is solid at 14.2 volts.

My plan is to install a ground cooling fan that will be installed on a cowl inlet plug. A 5 V muffin fan and a solar panel should do it. The idea is to draw air out of the cowling on the ground to help cool the engine and accessories. Since I have a plenum, the trick of opening the oil filler door is not viable.

Some will argue that natural convection should effectively cool the engine, but there are a lot of BTUs trapped in the big IO540.

I am also experimenting with (ahem) doing lower power approaches at a higher speed to cool the engine more on landing.

Any thoughts on all of this? You guys in Az must be on top of this.

Thanks.
 
How about a hand tool battery powered fan? Something with a bit more power. Are you thinking pulling or from the inlets and supplementing the updraft?

Maybe adapting a battery powered blower from Home Depot?
 
Are you running a composite or metal prop? I know in winter, that makes a big difference. A metal prop pulls a bunch of heat off the engine.

BTW, my house thermostat is set to 85 in the Summer!
 
Might be easier to replace the internally regulated PP with a B&C unit with the regulator mounted on the cool side of the firewall, no more problems :D
 
That's What I Do

Vern -

I too have a Rocket, and live in the central San Joaquin Valley of California where summertime temps average 99.something* most of the summer. I also have a plenum, so face the same "heat soak" after shutdown potential.

My solution is a bit more permanent than yours, but the principal is the same. I have a Grainger squirrel cage fan, mounted on a rolling cart, with individual ducts to each inlet. There is a mechanical timer that can be set for any time between 0 & 90 minutes. After getting the airplane back in the hanger, I plug in my "huffer" and set the timer for the full 90 minutes (most of the time - after all, what harm is there in more cool air?), and then close the hanger door and let the blower do its work. It is amazing at how quickly this system takes the "top" off the stagnation of the plenum - a ton of warm (read - hot) air comes out of the exit area of the cowling. After about a 10 minute run the cowling is mildly warm to the touch. I am using ambient air for the system, but I guess if you wanted to supercharge it you could use a small wall mounted AC unit instead.

I have been using this system for a little over 13 years now and I never put the airplane away (in its own hanger) without plugging in the blower - the faster the heat is taken away (within reason - don't want to supercool the cylinders), the less heat soak damage is done to all things FW forward.

YMMV

David Howe
 
What I do in NC

I set a small fan on the floor blowing up into the exhaust /cowl outlet on my -4 after "hot" flying (85-95) here in NC, and it will pour heat out the inlets. No sense trying to push hot air down. The heat is going to rise anyway, so I just give it a little help..gets mine cooled pretty quick.
 
Good grief Charlie Brown!

The goal is to build robust installations capable of withstanding anything an ordinary and/or expected operation might throw at it....a better leg, not a better crutch.

Vern, if your PP alternator won't withstand ordinary parked temperatures, there is something wrong with it, or there is something wrong with the installation. Your report is fresh news to me, so I'm inclined to pick the former. As for the latter, do you have a radiant heat shield on the #1 exhaust header?

You're a great electronics guy, so rig something, measure the installed temperatures, and determine when they rise.
 
I have done the floor fan pointed up thing too and it works great - but I think Vern is looking for something he can use at the gas pumps or while he's grabbing a bit to eat.

The Glassair guys use those little flapper doors that open up on the ground... More complicated with a plennum, but they might work too.

The real question though is why does your alternator trip? I routinely fly when its 115+, and I've never had an alternator shutdown.
 
Good suggestions all.

Michael got it right that I need a portable system, so a plug-in fan is not practicle. A 12 V fan with a timer is fine, but I want to try the solar powered fan first. Even a few CFM should help. It will be pulling air from the right inlet.

I can't blame the PP alternator for this problem yet. I have an email into Hartzell to see if this is expected operation. If not, then I have to look deeper. I have already replaced the regulator/OVP on the PP once due to premature failure (before first flight).

I will revisit the heat shields for the exhaust, but in my experience, the exhaust pipes retain so little heat that they cool down quickly on the ground. Given the high oil and CHTs that I see in these quick turn arounds, I do need to find a way to cool the engine on the ground.

Pointing the aircraft into the wind on the ground may be hurting. It's better to point away from the wind so that it assists natural convection, but this is a pretty fine point.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have a prop shaft seal, so there is no leakage of air from behind the prop. Any warm air rising through the cowling needs to find it's way through the plenum.
 
Just pull the red mixture knob from 10K and spiral down and land... That should have it nice and cool for you.:D

The rockets do suffer from the fact that the coolest CHT's are the seconds just before the tail wheel settles on the runway. They only get progressively hotter after that. I try to minimize running time after landing to moments if possible.

I just plan on the shortest possible roll out time to shut down. I will often request a tail wind landing for that reason alone, if the parking area is at the downwind end of the runway(vs a mile long meltdown taxi back with a tail wind) Parking with the nose into the breeze helps.

I agree with Dan about the alternator, however rocket intakes are not C-182 material. Rockets work just fine at 200Kts. Ground and taxi machines they are not.

A pair of computer fans with friction fitting ducts in front of the intakes would be a big help at shutdown for a 10 minute stop.
 
OK, so it sounds like I am not the only one that has a hot Rocket. I will try the exhaust fan cowl plug, which I can carry with me.
 
Not by a long shot!

OK, so it sounds like I am not the only one that has a hot Rocket. I will try the exhaust fan cowl plug, which I can carry with me.

Hey Vern:

Most I have run across are exactly like yours, tho only when the temps hits 100F or so. I would have a closer look at the alternator - it should not have the problem you talk about. Maybe a quickie small blast tube would cool it enough to keep it from heating up to the point where it quits?? Maybe some shielding too?

As Dan said: get a temp measurement, and then call PP about it.

If the thing gets THAT hot - how the heck do you get it started?

You could install some magnetic latch doors over the accy section to help with this cooling SNAFU? EZ open, but ya gotta remember to close 'em before cranking up. A butterfly design might actually close itself if done just so...

Also: Koolmat has some nifty insulation products that would likely help.

Last resort: the accy section alternator might stop this problem, but it's not a cheap fix....

Let us know what you do to fix this one please.

Carry on!
Mark
 
Hey Vern:

Most I have run across are exactly like yours, tho only when the temps hits 100F or so. I would have a closer look at the alternator - it should not have the problem you talk about. Maybe a quickie small blast tube would cool it enough to keep it from heating up to the point where it quits?? Maybe some shielding too?

As Dan said: get a temp measurement, and then call PP about it.

If the thing gets THAT hot - how the heck do you get it started?

You could install some magnetic latch doors over the accy section to help with this cooling SNAFU? EZ open, but ya gotta remember to close 'em before cranking up. A butterfly design might actually close itself if done just so...

Also: Koolmat has some nifty insulation products that would likely help.

Last resort: the accy section alternator might stop this problem, but it's not a cheap fix....

Let us know what you do to fix this one please.

Carry on!
Mark

Thanks, Mark. I have a cooling blast tube but it's not effective on the ground. I will look at shielding but given the other temperatures (215 F oil temp, 420 F CHT) on climb out after heat soaking, I have a bigger problem than just the alternator. No problems in lower ambients or first flight of the day.

That's why I think cooling the whole engine on the ground is the solution.

I will look at installing a thermal probe... I have provisions for one but never installed it. Murphy says we'll get cool weather by the time it's installed.

As an aside, I have aluminized fiberglass heat shield covering the inside of the lower cowl. This may be exacerbating the alternator problem, but it stops the cowl from blistering from the exhaust pipes. The engine is very tightly cowled.

There is a slim possibility that the alternator breaker itself is at fault, and that the cabin cooling air helps this once airborne. However, I still need to address the high CHT and oil temps.

As for engine starting at these temperatures, I have never had a hot start problem but I get a rough idle from time to time.

Stay tuned.
 
I will revisit the heat shields for the exhaust, but in my experience, the exhaust pipes retain so little heat that they cool down quickly on the ground.

There's no reason to believe your 540 is significantly warmer than other engines when parked. Yes, the 540 has more heat storage mass, but the actual temperature isn't likely to be higher.

Here's the thing Vern..does the alternator breaker trip as soon as you flip on the master, or if you power the field immediately after start, does it trip right then? These symptoms would suggest that the alternator actually got too hot while parked.

If the field breaker trips a minute or two after cranking, that would be the radiant heat from pipe #1 pushing a hot VR even higher. Radiant heating from the pipes is the most powerful heat source under the cowl. Large radiant shields are easy to do, and they're good for throttle bodies, hoses, and wires too.

 
not to distract from Verns questions but. what is the black line connected under the sump with the blue AN flare nut?

Nitrous oxide supply line. Did I fail to mention that?

V
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Naaa. It's a sniffle valve dump line, early photo. This one is steel because vibration broke the first one (aluminum). The steel line held up fine, but the additional mass broke the aluminum fitting. A rubber hose from the fitting got baked hard due to pipe heat. Eventually I ditched the sniffle entirely, and have not missed it.
 
There's no reason to believe your 540 is significantly warmer than other engines when parked. Yes, the 540 has more heat storage mass, but the actual temperature isn't likely to be higher.

Here's the thing Vern..does the alternator breaker trip as soon as you flip on the master, or if you power the field immediately after start, does it trip right then? These symptoms would suggest that the alternator actually got too hot while parked.

It's tripping after start... but the field is not energized until the engine starts, so you could be on to something.

The 540 will be hotter simply because the air inlets and outlet are about the same size as a 4-cylinder RV. The Rockets cool because they fly faster, but on the ground, not so much.

Nevertheless, here is my RevA fix. I will also look at shielding the #1 exhaust as well because that can only help:

cowl_cooling1.JPG


cowl_cooling2.JPG


cowl_cooling3.JPG


Power is from a 12 V outlet, but eventually I want to use a solar panel. Fan draws 500 mA, so is easy on the battery for now. Fortunately, the canopy locks in the position shown (to keep the interior cool), so I can run the cable through the gap.
 
On a side note, looks like a beautiful plane, do you have any pictures that show the entire exterior and some interior shots??

Cheers
 
If alt. breaker trirs after realeasing starter or cycling any other high current relay I would check diodes on relays ,just a thought ,has happened to me
 
Great airplane and I love your ingenuity, but I find it interesting that anyone, especially an electronics guy like yourself, would go to such an extent to design a work around to crutch a malfunctioning system. :confused:
Removing the electronics from the high heat area is a far better solution than trying to remove the heat from the engine/electronics.

And trying to cool a 540 off with a computer fan on a quick turn?

One of these new Rocket GPU's might work...

Pro-Force-Debris-BlowerProForce_44538.jpg
...
 
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Great airplane and I love your ingenuity, but I find it interesting that anyone, especially an electronics guy like yourself, would go to such an extent to design a work around to crutch a malfunctioning system. :confused:
Removing the electronics from the high heat area is a far better solution than trying to remove the heat from the engine/electronics.

And trying to cool a 540 off with a computer fan on a quick turn?

One of these new Rocket GPU's might work...

Pro-Force-Debris-BlowerProForce_44538.jpg
...

....I'm going to need a bigger airplane....

The fan in my pics not your mama's normal computer fan. The fan on the intake is rated for 32 CFM, which I estimate will evacuate the cowling twice per minute. With the pressure boost provided by natural convection, it will be even more.

I will be testing it soon, and I have the option of putting a second fan in place on the other intake.

Please note... Even if I went to an externally regulated alternator, that will do nothing to help the high CHT and oil temps after the quick turn operations. I'm hoping the fan will do that.

Some folks suggest pointing the aircraft into the wind when parked, but that is exactly wrong. Natural convection draws air into the cowl exit and out the intakes. The correct orientation for cooling when the engine is stopped is tail into the wind.

My most recent incident had 12-20 knot winds, and I was parked facing the wind for about a hour. I was one of only two aircraft that flew in during that hour because of the wind and turbulence. You'd think my engine would have cooled down, but it did not. I should have parked it the other way.

I have tried not to blame the PP alternator for any of this, but I agree that any internally regulated alternator exposes its electronics to some pretty extreme temperatures. The correct way is for aircraft to use an external regulator with remote sense, sitting in a cooler location.

I have been waiting a week for a response to my support email from HET (Plane Power) in regards to this issue. I've been patient due to the holiday, but now I consider this delay to be unacceptable. It was a simple request to determine if over-temperature will trip the field circuit breaker. BTW, if it is a characteristic of the alternator, I will be removing the regulator assembly from the PP and converting to an external regulator. This would be the second significant issue in 60 flight hours with this unit. I replaced the regulator unit once before, before first flight.

I will collect more information and post it here. We've been marginal VFR here due to forest fires so it may be a few days yet.

I'm glad no one has said 'cowl flaps'...

Cheers
 
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,Vern
I got 800+ hours on my simple Denso alternator with internal regulator. The failure mode was a slight decrease in voltage output over time. It was rebuilt at an auto shop and is back in service. The problem was the internal regulator, bearings etc were fine but replaced. Note, I do not have a cooling vent on the alternator.
I know that you guys have had a hot summer this year but your alternator should be able to stand the temps of our cowlings. I suggest another manufacturer if they are not co-operating. Drawing your battery down, even a little, with cooling fans is not going to help your starter to do its' job.
 
,Vern
I got 800+ hours on my simple Denso alternator with internal regulator. The failure mode was a slight decrease in voltage output over time. It was rebuilt at an auto shop and is back in service. The problem was the internal regulator, bearings etc were fine but replaced. Note, I do not have a cooling vent on the alternator.
I know that you guys have had a hot summer this year but your alternator should be able to stand the temps of our cowlings. I suggest another manufacturer if they are not co-operating. Drawing your battery down, even a little, with cooling fans is not going to help your starter to do its' job.

Agreed. I am working on the permanent alternator fix. However, I still want to cool the engine block to see if I can get the CHT and OT under control on the quick turns.

I'm like a dog with a bone on this, so I'll chew for a while.
 
Agreed. I am working on the permanent alternator fix. However, I still want to cool the engine block to see if I can get the CHT and OT under control on the quick turns...

If you are making more heat than you can shed in flight, then ground cooling is only going to delay the inevitable. It sounds like you have something else going on.
 
If you are making more heat than you can shed in flight, then ground cooling is only going to delay the inevitable. It sounds like you have something else going on.


Temperatures in cruise flight are good and well balanced, but I need to change my approaches somewhat so that the engine cools down before landing. A bit complicated because of the dynamic counterweights in the D4A5, but if I reduce MAP and RPM together and point the nose down I can get more airflow at low power on approach.

Doesn't help the overhead breaks though...

I have spent quite a bit of effort optimizing airflow through the cowling for high speed operations, with the plenum, individual cylinder air flow balancing, prop shaft seal, coanda strip on the cowl exit and sealed UGLF. A did a whole bunch of airframe tweaks as well. Everything is optimized for speed/efficiency which is about 212 KTAS at 8500?.

All of this means that I may be undercooled at slower speeds and I am not rejecting enough heat, hence the need to rethink my approaches and to have the cooling fan for high ground ambient situations.

The Rocket is not a normal RV and perhaps I should stop flying it like one!
 
He Vern, a handheld thermocouple meter can be had for under $100. It will handle two inputs, and either K or J. I got one from Omega a few years ago and use it for many tasks. Quantifying the actual temp will greatly help determine if the regulator is faulty or a poor performer.

cole-parmer - http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/Handheld_Thermocouple_Meters/45637?SortBy=3&Page=1

My current plan is to repurpose the CHT-1 probe and attach it to the alternator. That way I can datalog it with my SkyView. Aftr shutdown, I can run the SkyView For several minutes, either on the main battery or the SkyView backup.
 
My current plan is to repurpose the CHT-1 probe and attach it to the alternator. That way I can datalog it with my SkyView. Aftr shutdown, I can run the SkyView For several minutes, either on the main battery or the SkyView backup.

I did have another thought, part throttle on descent and approach would result in advanced timing (unless you have two mags) which would also increase the heat rejection. I am not familiar with the external control over the advance curves, but it might be another "knob" to gain some advantage on hot days.

Just an idea.
 
Temperatures in cruise flight are good and well balanced, but I need to change my approaches somewhat so that the engine cools down before landing. A bit complicated because of the dynamic counterweights in the D4A5, but if I reduce MAP and RPM together and point the nose down I can get more airflow at low power on approach...

I'm wondering what descent technique you are doing, and also (because I also have a D4A5), what limitations prevent you from doing what you want.
 
I'm wondering what descent technique you are doing, and also (because I also have a D4A5), what limitations prevent you from doing what you want.

The D4A5 manual warns that low power, high rpm descents can detune the dynamic counterweights. Check the operating manual if you have one.
 
I have one, but I don't use that technique. I cruise full throttle at 2300 RPM (typically 8,000 feet/21 inches MP). For descent, I just lower the nose to 1000 FPM and wait until MP climbs to my desired terminal area power setting ( generally 22/23 inches). As I descend, I only touch the throttle to maintain 22/23 inches all the way to the pattern. Once I'm in the terminal area, throttle is as required. On final, prop and mixture go forward and I'm all set.

Even with an insane OAT this results in a pretty cool engine exiting the runway.
 
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I have an MT so I have no RPM restrictions in the low or mid range. Normally I fly an ILS at 160 to 177 KTS with about 16 to 18 inches and 2200 RPM.

For a normal straight in VFR approach I just leave cruise RPM at 2000 to 2200 RPM and arc onto final at 200 KTS plus or minus. I just ease the power back slowly and progressively starting about 3 miles back. Once the power drops below 12 inches it is like a parachute is tied to the tailwheel and flap speed is made on short final. Also below 12 inches I push the prop lever full fine with no RPM rise, but ready for a missed or overshoot. About the time the tail settles on the runway CHTs are below 300. Cruise oil temps are seldom over 180 F and belowv160 F if I approach and land as described. Even on hot days. I also have a plenum, and like it for winter flying as the cowl plugs will keep the engine warm for a few hours even on -20 C days.

On a grass strip I plan for a steep power off 65kt final that makes for a very short rollout.

Not instruction for anyone, just the way I do it.:)
 
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I did have another thought, part throttle on descent and approach would result in advanced timing (unless you have two mags) which would also increase the heat rejection. I am not familiar with the external control over the advance curves, but it might be another "knob" to gain some advantage on hot days.

Just an idea.

My Electroair will auto advance at low MAP. I can also turn off the advance to run at fixed 20 degree timing.
 
The Heat is on...

In the hot weather (75 to 80F), I've been using my Rocket for quick turn-around operations, with about 1 hour turn-around.

Due to the heat soaked engine, I get high CHT and oil temperatures on takeoff and climb out. Not a real problem, just has to be managed.

The real problem is that my PP alternator shuts down ('trips') on the ground due to over temperature. I can work around this but it's not pretty... Once I get airflow on the takeoff roll, the alternator will stay on line And the voltage is solid at 14.2 volts.

My plan is to install a ground cooling fan that will be installed on a cowl inlet plug. A 5 V muffin fan and a solar panel should do it. The idea is to draw air out of the cowling on the ground to help cool the engine and accessories. Since I have a plenum, the trick of opening the oil filler door is not viable.

Some will argue that natural convection should effectively cool the engine, but there are a lot of BTUs trapped in the big IO540.

I am also experimenting with (ahem) doing lower power approaches at a higher speed to cool the engine more on landing.

Any thoughts on all of this? You guys in Az must be on top of this.

Thanks.

Vern,
I operated my HR2 in FL and the SE USA for 8 summers and used the following techniques (several already mentioned).

1. Boost Pump on during all ground ops, all the time till 1000 AGL.(Vapor Lock)
2. Oil door open when parked, always park into wind.
3. Takeoff at Full power with a reduction to 23 squared at 1000'. Cruise climbs at 140 Knots 23 squared.
4. 15W50 Oil, runs cooler as does Electronic Ign.
5. I also cut a larger cowling exit area which helped cooling immensely with little if any speed loss.
6.Go everywhere above 5K foor comfort and cooling.

Hope this helps!
V/R
Smokey
 
Vern,
I operated my HR2 in FL and the SE USA for 8 summers and used the following techniques (several already mentioned).

1. Boost Pump on during all ground ops, all the time till 1000 AGL.(Vapor Lock)
2. Oil door open when parked, always park into wind.
3. Takeoff at Full power with a reduction to 23 squared at 1000'. Cruise climbs at 140 Knots 23 squared.
4. 15W50 Oil, runs cooler as does Electronic Ign.
5. I also cut a larger cowling exit area which helped cooling immensely with little if any speed loss.
6.Go everywhere above 5K foor comfort and cooling.

Hope this helps!
V/R
Smokey

I like your suggestions, especially the one about moving to Florida!
 
The official recommendation from HET is to convert the original internally regulated alternator to an externally regulated one at the cost of a few hundred dollars.

Although they did not confirm that the internal regulator assembly is sensitive to heat, that is my assumption. I will admit to some level of disappointment that the expensive Plane Power alternator is not as robust as I expected.

Just proves the point... Electronics located FWF are generally a bad idea.
 
The official recommendation from HET is to convert the original internally regulated alternator to an externally regulated one at the cost of a few hundred dollars.

Interesting. That would be a 180 from Plane Power's position.

Seriously, are we to take that as "Everyone should move their VR to the cockpit", or is it more like "If you're convinced that your installation is real, real, hot, and nothing can be done about it, we recommend moving the VR into the cockpit."?

Vern, have you actually measured temperatures yet?

Just proves the point... Electronics located FWF are generally a bad idea.

Generally speaking, I agree...but it's always best to quantify.

Good read, although more than 10 years old at this point:

http://www.eng.auburn.edu/apl/files/johnson.pdf
 
I've been out cruising the San Juan Islands, so no flying recently. Hoping to gather some data soon, but schedule is tight.

'Too many toys' syndrome.

BTW, the paper cited shows a typical automotive environment where the alternator temperature is the second hottest component, with the exhaust being the hottest. This is with normal airflow, not at idle.

Vern
 
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I've been out cruising the San Juan Islands, so no flying recently. Hoping to gather some data soon, but schedule is tight.

'Too many toys' syndrome.

BTW, the paper cited shows a typical automotive environment where the alternator temperature is the second hottest component, with the exhaust being the hottest. This is with normal airflow, not at idle.

Vern

I am near the point of determining PP cooling needs, so if/when you do quantify what you have (compared to what the vendor specifies) would greatly help me. Probably others too. It is easy enough for me to attach a thermocouple to that location for phase I evaluation.

Heat related failure for alternators is not unusual, even for OEM's. Some just don't want to spend the extra product cost on a liquid cooled unit. First hand experience.
 
I got almost 850 hours with my off the shelf internally regulated Denso alternator. It is in my rocket with no blast air tube and should be almost exactly the same circumstances as Verns' airplane. I think he probably just got a dud.
 
OK, here are some numbers.
Three flights spaced two-three hours apart. Datalogged the last two flights. Ambient temperature around 80F (ground):

Maximum alternator temp (level flight): 67C
Maximum alternator rear case temp (ground idle, normal load): 85C
Maximum alternator temp (post flight):103C

Both flights were identical, except the second flight I installed the exhaust fan post shut-down. I datalogged the results and the cooling rate with open cowl intakes vs. the exhaust fan cowl plugs were virtually identical.

So the exhaust fan provides no additional benefit, but does not hurt either. I could try it with two fans, but now the complexity is starting to increase.

One observation on the exhaust fan: I could not hold my hand closer than 1 inch from the exhaust, and touching the metal fan screen was painfully hot.

Conclusions: The ground idle temperature is the one for concern. It has the minimum cooling airflow, plus the radiant heat of the engine. Next step is to fabricate an exhaust heat shield for the #1 cylinder, which is 4 inches away from the alternator.

Cheers,
 
Vern, that is just not that high - automotive cooling system will go to 250F on hot days. Down stream air temps are pretty high. I am remembering electronics limits of 130C from former development days. 250F is around 130C.

I could be wrong, but gut feel says this device (voltage regulator) is defective and should be replaced. Under warranty?

PS - heat shields would be necessary, but not change the gut feel.

Edit: After searching in some only DelcoRemy documents the continuous air intake limit is 105C. Maybe some other issue, but still think the part is defective.
 
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I forgot to mention that I had no tripping offline on any of the three flights. Heisenberg was right.
 
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