Aspiring RV-14A builder, looking to connect with Portland area builders

Hi all,

I'm planning on building an RV-14A. I've taken a test flight in the RV-14A at the Van's factory and I purchased the RV sheet metal training project and toolbox kit while I was there. I'm building the standard EAA workbench but I've yet to bite the bullet on the sheet metal tools.

I'm looking to connect with other builders in the Portland area. Specifically, I'm hoping someone might be generous enough to invite me to their shop and spend a weekend morning building one of the practice kits. That way I can make an informed decision on rivet guns, pneumatic squeezers, etc., and check out a shop setup.

I'm based out of Twin Oaks (got my PPL there about four years ago). If anyone is looking to partner on a fresh build or already in progress RV-14A, I'd be interested in that as well. I've attended several EAA 105 breakfasts and a handful of meetings over the past couple years but haven't connected with too many folks yet.

Build space is my main hurdle. I don't have a garage, but a nearby neighbor/friend offered me his. (I don't know how long he would remain my friend after using a rivet gun, though). There is an industrial district nearby my home that I'm sure I could find some shop space in. Or if I found a partner with suitable build space, maybe we could use that.

I spoke with Bob at Twin Oaks and he will let you use a hangar to build so long as its done in a year (he doesn't want projects lingering in the hangars for 5-6 years). I would like to build the wings and possibly parts of the empennage close to home (even in my living room if needed), then move to Twin Oaks to do the fuselage, assembly, finishing, etc.

On the RV-14A, the empennage kit comes with the tail cone. Can you build the horizontal stabilizer and rudder separate from the tail cone, and store the tail cone to build later? (I'm asking due to the above space options).

Can you do most of the wings with a pneumatic squeezer instead of a loud rivet gun? (Again, just considering due to space options).

Edit: To clarify, I haven't purchased any of the kits for the RV-14A yet.

Thanks!
Stephen

Welcome, I'm building an RV-7 in Hillsboro. Your welcome to come by and take a look. I should be fitting the wings to the fuse for the first time this weekend. Just send me a PM if your interested.

Hi Stephen,

You can add me to your list of hangers to visit, have tools and willing to build a tool box or more.

I'll be the cashier at EAA chapter 105 breakfast @ twin oaks first Saturday of March coming up.

My link is below...

Consider taking the fundamentals class at Synergy Air in Eugene. I would really give you a good start.

Welcome to VAF!

Stephen, welcome aboard the good ship VAF.

blueisthenewblack said:

On the RV-14A, the empennage kit comes with the tail cone. Can you build the horizontal stabilizer and rudder separate from the tail cone, and store the tail cone to build later? (I'm asking due to the above space options).

Click to expand...

Yes.

blueisthenewblack said:

Can you do most of the wings with a pneumatic squeezer instead of a loud rivet gun? (Again, just considering due to space options).

Thanks!
Stephen

Click to expand...

The squeezers---either hand operated, hydraulic, or pneumatic have to rely on a yoke for the back side of the rivet. The yoke seriously limits the distance from the edge of a part you can reach-------typically a 3" or so throat is as large as you can get----too much more and the yoke deforms during use. The rivet gun and bucking bar have no such restriction.

MeAndMyToys said:

Welcome, I'm building an RV-7 in Hillsboro. Your welcome to come by and take a look. I should be fitting the wings to the fuse for the first time this weekend. Just send me a PM if your interested.

Click to expand...

PM sent, thank you!!

BruceEicher said:

Hi Stephen,

You can add me to your list of hangers to visit, have tools and willing to build a tool box or more.

I'll be the cashier at EAA chapter 105 breakfast @ twin oaks first Saturday of March coming up.

My link is below...

Click to expand...

Awesome, I'll plan on being there. Looking forward to meeting you then!

hardtop said:

Consider taking the fundamentals class at Synergy Air in Eugene. I would really give you a good start.

Click to expand...

I probably will take this. I wanted to take the class this weekend actually but it's already full. I should sign up for the May class before it fills up as well .

Mike S said:

The squeezers---either hand operated, hydraulic, or pneumatic have to rely on a yoke for the back side of the rivet. The yoke seriously limits the distance from the edge of a part you can reach-------typically a 3" or so throat is as large as you can get----too much more and the yoke deforms during use. The rivet gun and bucking bar have no such restriction.

Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense.. thanks! I'm still looking at space options. Looks like finding space that can handle a loud rivet gun is a must.

Also, noise wise-------DRDT2 is a lot quieter than a "C" frame for doing dimples.

http://www.experimentalaero.com/

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/C-Frame-Bench-Riveting-Tool/productinfo/CF80/#.VO9s6i6uh_A

Stephen, I'm over on the east side, but I would welcome a visit to my shop as well if you'd be interested. I'm building a 7A and I'm in the final stages. I can share a lot of experience, answer a lot of questions, talk about tools, etc. I'm just off of I-205 about 10 min. south of PDX. I live about 25 min. from Vans. I'm at most of the chapter 105 breakfasts. Hope to meet you!

BSwayze said:

Stephen, I'm over on the east side, but I would welcome a visit to my shop as well if you'd be interested. I'm building a 7A and I'm in the final stages. I can share a lot of experience, answer a lot of questions, talk about tools, etc. I'm just off of I-205 about 10 min. south of PDX. I live about 25 min. from Vans. I'm at most of the chapter 105 breakfasts. Hope to meet you!

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Hey Bruce! I think we actually met at one of the EAA 105 breakfasts just after New Year's. We were both on kitchen duty cooking eggs and washing dishes as I recall . I'm the tall blonde guy with long hair. I didn't get a chance to get your contact information that day and realized it as soon as I got home, but I'm glad we've reconnected. I'll send you a PM. Thanks!!!!

Huge thanks to BruceS. and Brenden for letting me check out your shops and planes today. I learned a lot and have more confidence of taking on an RV.

I started crunching numbers more this weekend and I really don't think the RV-14A is for me based on the price. Plus BruceS let me spend a good amount of time sitting in his 7A and space wasn't an issue at all even with my 6'2" height. On the 14A, I like the idea of extra room, the new landing gear design, the newest plans format, the fact that it builds faster/easier with new manufacturing techniques for part alignment, the built-in wiring harnesses, and just knowing that I'm working with the latest design and engineering. But I can't justify the large price increase on the engine and prop alone. A 7A with a 180HP engine, fixed prop will fulfill my needs just fine. And like Brenden said, you can just go and get a emp. kit for the 7A for $1,800 from Vans and get started, so it's less of an entry cost than a 14A.

I know that some things could be cut from below (more basic panel, do-it-yourself paint, etc.) but I was trying to use conservative estimates.

blueisthenewblack said:

Huge thanks to BruceS. and Brenden for letting me check out your shops and planes today. I learned a lot and have more confidence of taking on an RV.

I started crunching numbers more this weekend and I really don't think the RV-14A is for me based on the price. Plus BruceS let me spend a good amount of time sitting in his 7A and space wasn't an issue at all even with my 6'2" height. On the 14A, I like the idea of extra room, the new landing gear design, the newest plans format, the fact that it builds faster/easier with new manufacturing techniques for part alignment, the built-in wiring harnesses, and just knowing that I'm working with the latest design and engineering. But I can't justify the large price increase on the engine and prop alone. A 7A with a 180HP engine, fixed prop will fulfill my needs just fine. And like Brenden said, you can just go and get a emp. kit for the 7A for $1,800 from Vans and get started, so it's less of an entry cost than a 14A.

I know that some things could be cut from below (more basic panel, do-it-yourself paint, etc.) but I was trying to use conservative estimates.

Code:

                 RV-7A FP 180HP  RV-14A CS 210HP
Practice kits    $70             $70    
Tools            $2,000          $2,000    
Build class      $150            $150    
Emp              $1,780          $4,010    
Wing             $7,180          $7,675    
Fuselage         $7,055          $9,795    
Finishing        $7,020          $10,000    
Engine           $25,000         $43,000    
Prop             $3,380          $12,000    
Prop gov         n/a             $1,400    
Firewall fwd     $4,800          $4,800    
Panel/avionics   $12,000         $12,000    
Lights           $1,140          $1,140    
Elec. system     $1,000          $1,000    
Cushions/harn    $900            $900    
Paint            $6,000          $6,000    
Misc.            $1,000          $1,000    
Shop rental      $3,600          $3,600    
TOTAL            $84,075         $120,540

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I wont try and tell you that an RV-14A can be completed for the same price as an RV-7A (because it can't), but I am not sure what you are basing some of your pricing information on.

The propeller you are listing for the 7A is a fixed pitch and the one you are listing for the 14A is a composite constant speed... not really a direct comparison. Very few RV's are flying with the composite constant speed. In reality, you could put a fixed pitch prop on the RV-14A also, and suffer the exact same loss of utility that you will with a fixed pitch on the 7A (less baggage payload because of C.G., etc.).
So to make a fair comparison.... the exact same constant speed prop can ( and what most people do use) be used on both airplanes, so that would negate any price difference of the prop, gov., etc.
I think you are also high on the engine price for the 14A. I believe IO390's are being made available at OEM prices below what the 200 HP engine sells for, and they are currently priced at $40,700.

So if you compared two similarly equipped airplanes but the different engines, I think the prices would be a little closer to...

RV-7A - $89,000
RV-14A - $111,000

rvbuilder2002 said:

I wont try and tell you that an RV-14A can be completed for the same price as an RV-7A (because it can't), but I am not sure what you are basing some of your pricing information on.

The propeller you are listing for the 7A is a fixed pitch and the one you are listing for the 14A is a composite constant speed... not really a direct comparison. Very few RV's are flying with the composite constant speed. In reality, you could put a fixed pitch prop on the RV-14A also, and suffer the exact same loss of utility that you will with a fixed pitch on the 7A (less baggage payload because of C.G., etc.).
So to make a fair comparison.... the exact same constant speed prop can ( and what most people do use) be used on both airplanes, so that would negate any price difference of the prop, gov., etc.
I think you are also high on the engine price for the 14A. I believe IO390's are being made available at OEM prices below what the 200 HP engine sells for, and they are currently priced at $40,700.

So if you compared two similarly equipped airplanes but the different engines, I think the prices would be a little closer to...

RV-7A - $89,000
RV-14A - $111,000

Click to expand...

Thank you for the feedback! I didn't know the IO-390 could be used with a fixed-pitch prop, that's good info. I got the ~$43,000 estimate from here:
http://gnaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/January-2013-GNX-Flyer.pdf

I later found that Van's was showing a lower price of $36,300 here:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/open/2013-special.pdf

But this was on special with the prop (a great deal).

Thanks for pointing out the difference on the prop too - looks like the composite wasn't the "standard" choice.