runway length

Just wondering what would be a safe minimum runway length for a -4. To paint a picture I have just moved to the northern teritory (Australia) on to a 23 acre block. I have about 300 metres from the boundry to where the block drops off fairly steeply. I can knock a few trees out to give me heaps of under/over shoot , but there is not much i can do about the power lines at the other end. i realise it does not sound good for a training feild, but will I be able to operate in and out of it?
Any input welcome.
Cheers
Bill.
-4, all crated up again for the move.

Yes

Hi Bill,
With practise you can work off 900-1000 feet. Takeoffs aren't the problem, but landing rollout may be. If you do not have to approach over trees, use good, short field techniques, the -4 ought to do fine.
Regards,

Addendum

Hi again Bill,
Here we have powerlines buried for a fee. Could you do that and are they even necessary? Are they high enough to go under?
Regards,

Short Runways

Bill I operate from here. It is 1020' fence to fence measured with a surveyors wheel.

I have succesfully operated a -9A and a Supercub in and out without frightening myself. The -4 should need slightly less distance.

When I started flying the -9A, apart from the very first takeoff, I operated out of a local strip until I was confident, then returned. The -9A was very easy to spot land and it only took 10 or 12 flights.

The problem is all about landing, not takeoff.

Be very careful of the power lines. Mine are buried, you can still see a very slight diagonal from the tree on the left > top right crossing the runway just over half way up. I operated for a while with them there. Landing was not a problem, but occasionally on takeoff when you lifted off sooner than expected I found it very hard to stay really close to the ground until I had passed under them.

I think the key is to operate somewhere else until you are certain about you and the particular aircraft. But it is quite doo-able.

The two other 'take cares' are a) wet grass (perhaps not a problem in Oz.), and b) a tail wind. Unless it is very strong I have to accept it because the trees are to tall for me to land the other way. Make a habit of ALWAYS comparing the ASI and GPS late on final so you know the tailwind component.

I will fly the -4 out of here when the first flight comes and then practice somewhere else 'til I am ready to return.

Good luck, Steve.

Good on u mate

Steve Sampson said:

Make a habit of ALWAYS comparing the ASI and GPS late on final so you know the tailwind component.

I will fly the -4 out of here when the first flight comes and then practice somewhere else 'til I am ready to return.

Good luck, Steve.

Click to expand...

That is good advice Steve, Nice strip, I think I am jealous.

My comments are, I had two scares on short (soft) strips. In one case the brakes where dragging due to being worn (my fault). The pucks where not retracting properly because they where extending too far because the pads where worn. I even noticed after landing on a previous day/flight the brakes seemed to drag when I moved it by hand into the hanger, however later when I moved it, it was fine after the brakes had cooled. Just make sure everything is 100%, including tire pressure.

The other time was on grass, real wet gas, as steve mentioned. It had not rained in a few days, but those earlier rains where very heavy and the ground was still saturated. I forgot about those rains and the take run was way longer than what I had expected. You just have to put your thinking cap on when flying out of shorter strips and consider things that you take for granted on a long hard surface RW. Sometimes you may have to say NO GO due to winds or the field's surface conditions, but it can be done, obviously with out much problem.

Speed control, near min safe short final speed (Vso x 1.3) and touch down speed (Vso), landing in the touchdown zone is key. If you tend to land long and float on long runways, you will do it on short runways. With approach obstacles and non-favorable winds, 1000 feet may is too short. There are too many variables to say for sure, plus pilot skill is a factor. We all know Factory planes AFM's are criticized for being too optimistic.

Van only publishes ground roll data. It's up to you to calculate or flight test the OVER 50' obstacle landing distance. My RV-4 had a constant speed prop and it helped in both T/O and Landing distance over my fixed prop friends. If you are serious about STOL, a c/s prop should be considered.

Short runways...addendum

George mentioned C/S props. I was remiss to forget that. Certainly with the -9A it was essential. Steve.

landing distance

I've never short-fielded an RV-4. But my old RV-3 could land in a VERY short distance for a 200mph airplane. On pavement I could safely land under 500', and I've done as little as 300' measured. Sod is a different matter though. 2,000' was perfectly comfortable (even on a poorly kept field). Anything under 1,500' I have to walk first. It must be smooth and it especially helps to scout the flat spots on a poorer runway.

The key to landing short is getting those wheels firmly planted on the ground and braking. You've got to loose 60mph as fast as posssible. On a poorly kept sod field, that is very tough, as any bump launches you back into the air. My shortest sod landing was a little under 1,000'. I think a really well kept sod field could be much less, 600-700' predictably.

-Bruce

Hi Bill,

Obviously there are a lot of things to consider, and runway length is only one of them. It's the variables that may catch you out - things like wind speed and direction, length of grass, slope, and of course, density altitude.

I operate an RV 6 with 160 hp and FP prop out of a 700 m grass strip (2300 feet) and regularly stop by half distance with very little use of brakes.
If you have a good technique and a CS prop, you will give yourself the best chance of doing it safely. Grass is definitely easier than bituman, with less float on hot days.

BTW - whose RV-4 did you buy ?

Cheers

Martin
Gatton Airpark.Q.

Density Altitude

Bill,
With temperatures in the Northern Territory around 30?C the density altitude will effect your perfomance signicicantly, so you cannot expect the same figures as those landing where it is cool and green.

As others have said, you need to practice on a long runway and know before you land at home that you can do it comfortbly in 1000' (300M)
Pete.

Carrier landings

pierre smith said:

Takeoffs aren't the problem, but landing rollout may be

Click to expand...

Yeah, but being an experimental you can just design a tail hook and drop an arrestor wire near the end of the runway, just in case

Thanks for that, I spent 12 years in Kununurra flying C606 207 210 in and out of a range of strips, so am aware of the temp problems, the way the block is set up I have heaps of over shoot (south) .
I am building my own. enp done, Wings ready to assemble 537594 packing boxs to unpack. (wifes stuff).
cheers.
Bill.

Oh why did you not say so

hectorrv4 said:

Thanks for that, I spent 12 years in Kununurra flying C606 207 210 in and out of a range of strips, so am aware of the temp problems, the way the block is set up I have heaps of over shoot (south) .
I am building my own. enp done, Wings ready to assemble 537594 packing boxs to unpack. (wifes stuff).
cheers.
Bill.

Click to expand...

Bill, why did you not say so. For you 500 feet, stop on a dime and give 9 pennies back. Yea without coming out and saying it, pilot skill is key, the plane can do it. Have fun building, it is worth it. Cheers

Yep.

George is absolutely right. Once you have the feel of your RV you will cream it.
Pete.
PS. How about a LAT LONG so I can drop in.
P.

Thanks again for all your advise. I actually gave up full time flying a while ago. Am a full time lame now. I dont actually have the co-ords for this place, but I am just north of the Acacia Hills store, A bit south of emmkaytee. Might be easier to drop in to Hardy maintaince in Darwin. Always welcome for a chat.
I wont be building a runway for a while, Just a very smooth, straight, wide fire break.
Cheers,
Bill.
Still unpacking.

Tight Squeeze...

G,
I built my RV4 at a friends house with a 900' backyard with trees at one end and a soybean field at the other. I made my RV4 test flight there(my first RV flight) and 16 takeoffs and landings the first day getting the trim right. My current strip is 2000' long and seems like the space shuttle strip in comparison.
Here are some useful numbers you can apply, hopefully. When you fly your 4.Take it up to altitude and slow it down, full flaps and take it right to the burble in stall and note your AS indicator and GPS groundspeed. Add about 5 knots to that number (5 more with pax) and you have a safe over the fence speed. Fly it at that speed at altitude and you will be amazed at how maneuverable is is.
Having a FP prop and short gear, I normally fly a tail-low, power-on approach to a short strip less than 1000' long right down to the grass blades and pull it to idle just as the tailwheel touches. With braking you can easily stop in 400-500 feet on grass. The constant speed RV4's are even easier as the prop helps the deceleration alot.
I figure 1000' (350 meters)is a safe minimum runway length for daily operations, with no approach obstacles. 1500 would be nice for hauling passengers with a FP prop.
Recently I followed a super cub purist friend into his short backyard runway(900'). After a visit I took off, climbed up and did a few minutes of acro, came by at 175 knots and cruised home at 160 knots at 8 gph...he was without comment.
With practice, I can get my Harmon Rocket into the same length strips as my 4, the big paddle prop out front and steep fuselage angle in 3 point(aerobrake) really helps it slow down.

It's simply a great airplane...
Smokey
HR2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKzBuk4JgYk&feature=related

A video for all the -4 builders, to keep up the enthusiasm.

Off and on we have talked about runway length. I set out to make a camera mount so I could take a little picture of the approach into my 1020' strip. With little flying recently my progress has been slow, and this first attempt the SD card became full in the circuit, so I will re post when I get another chance.

However, its a nice sunny little video of a blast around the Yorkshire Dales, so I thought I would put it here to help the builders who are still struggling with the rivets. I hope it helps.

Either, via my blog.

or direct to youtube

It starts into sun but please be patient, it improves, but I am not Sam Peckinpah!

Spring day in the UK...

Nice video Steve!!! Surprised to see the white stuff on the hills there! I have a lightweight RV4 staying with us for a few weeks and I have been flying it, ALOT! I have forgotten how much fun a lightweight RV4 is compared to the Rocket and how slow it will fly on approach, and how well it "squeezes" into the Swamp.

Cheers!
Smokey
HR2

For Smokey to critique, and all the other STOL RV4 pilots...

....to laugh at. So finally I caught a couple of landings on camera. Rough and ready as usual, but I am enjoying myself. Sorry the camera still shakes and crackles...

I just hope they are up to the standard of 'the swamp'!

Two circuits in RV4 G-IKON.

PS The bottom line, 1000' is quite enough with practice and care.

A up Steve

I think if Sam Peckinpah was still alive he would have approved. Maybe he would have liked a little more violence. Great video Steve.

When are you off to Austria?

Hi Bill

If I am not mistaken we met in Kunners a few years back. You were talking about building an RV - 4. We had some discussion about wood props being utterly unsuitable for the Kimberlys. I had brought in a Fletcher for maintenance and we arced up the DC - 3 ?

Delighted to see you made a heap of progress on your plane !! Keep us posted .

Bill,

Gidday,

You rang me a year or so ago to talk RV4's, as someone operating a RV4 out of short strips in West Australian heat I have found 300m fine unless you have contant 10kts on the tail and pea gravel to stop on!.

Dont forget that a D9 can put in a little favourable slope for fast stops and gravity assisted take off runs ala PNG.

Regards,

Adrian

Wow,long time since I posted that one !
Am now well established in the N.T and set up in business for myself. (its good to be the king.) The finish kit is on the way, but in the meantime, I have bought a flying -4 to set up my business. It is a bit on the rough side, but solid and reliable, ( the 'plane, not the business!) (the business is solid and reliabe also, not rough.) and I dont get too teary if I scratch it loading tools and equipment into it. Have done about 150 hours since I picked it up in July last year, and am starting to move towards geting it based on my block. In the meantime I have been operating out of a few local small strips. MKT and batchelor.
Things I have learnt from this one that I will incorporate in the next : electric flaps, good. electric trim, bad. O320 and wood prop, no way. O320 and sensy metal prop, O.K, but would like to try O360 and C/S on the new one. Fuel is adequate, I usually carry some gerry cans of fuel with me and that is my reserve. Will fit 5 point harnes front and back on both. what I realy love about the one I am flying is the painted canopy, from the point of the rear to about the top third at the front. picture takeing the canopy, turning it upside down and dipping it in a big bowl of paint. The shade is bliss. Might reduce your visability if you do a lot of aero/ formation, But if you take off, fly 2.5, spend 2 hours in the sun fixing something, then fly 2.5 home, it is magic.
Love the movie of the crts Steve, and yes, I was pushing on the non existant brake pedalls under my computer as the trees got bigger.
Mark, the DC3 lives on in Darwin still. As far as I know, the last time it flew was to comemorate the bombing of Darwin on the 19 Feb.
We have started a chapter of the SAAA up here, and I am hopeing to become the T.C for the area. Anyone up/down this way is more than welcome to drop in for a catch up, or ,if you break down anywhere in the top end, I will be very happy to come and fix you (Hey ,my kids need educateing to!)
Thanks to all that have helped me thus far, and for all the help I know is still out there.
Cheers,
Bill Markey.
A Wing and Repair.
Remote Area Repair Rectification and Recovery.
Acacia Hills,
Northern Territory
Australia.
VH-DAX RV-4 flying
4434 "Hector" building

A "House-call" RV doctor!

Great, Bill,

I have a 'house-call' Air Tractor doctor here.....really handy when the chips are down and we're really busy. A friend nearby is also an RV 'house-call' mech.

Best,

hector said:

...the crts Steve, and yes, I was pushing on the non existant brake pedalls under my computer as the trees got bigger.....

Click to expand...

You might have been braking....but I dont think I was,....well not much!

Pierre,
Havent had a lot to do with air tractors. Have spent an uncomfortable amount of time with my digits in C188, Ayers thrush with both TPE 331 and PT6, and have seen just how bad an aeroplane can get and still fly in the form of a VERY interesting Ag Cat. In fact I am booked in next week to instal a new aircon compressor in a Thrush, and fit a new seat. Might be up for a H.S.I also.
Got all inspired to try out my short field technique today. first effort didnt go to well, static system full of water and gunk. Rather eratic ASI. clean that out, second atempt went not to bad touch down 5 kts above stall, max brake, but they would not release . 1800 RPM to taxy off the runway. not to flash. Park it up, fix the brakes on a B58 (at least I get paid for that one) and go home to mow some of the lawn . Try again tomorrow, after fixing a surging engine on a Cheiftan. Better to be busy than bored.
Cheers,
Bill.

Hi Bill......

.....If you'll pay close attention to your pitch attitude (looking over the nose), and its correlation to the airspeed you're shooting for, when practising those short fielders, it'll get to where you can nail the airspeed without staring at the airspeed indicator.

Best,